Episode 324: Firefighters Are Tactical Athletes: Recovery Debt, Sleep, and the Safe to Talk Culture with Marc Wysocki

Published 2026-07-23

Episode notes

Society wants an Olympic athlete neurosurgeon on every call. That superhero may have already saved the day ten times this week, at two in the morning, on no sleep. Nobody sees the beating on the inside.

Hello Smart Firefighting Community!

Welcome to another episode of covering real world innovations via interviews with fire service and technology industry experts that empower YOU to develop your very own Smart Firefighting strategy.

Captain Marc Wysocki of the Sheffield Volunteer Fire Department won first place in the 2025 Darley Thought Leadership Essay Contest with "Behind the Mask" - an essay on the root causes of mental health challenges in the fire service.

He is also the head athletic trainer at Berkshire School and recently finished his doctorate, so he looks at firefighters the way he looks at athletes: as tactical athletes who cannot perform without recovery.

This conversation maps the forces his essay names, comparative suffering, the 200 micro traumas packed away, recovery debt, emotional contagion in close quarters, and lays out what a safe to talk culture actually looks like in a firehouse.

Topics covered:

Treating firefighters, EMS, and police as tactical athletes

Comparative suffering and the micro traumas that stack up

The superhero myth and taking a beating on the inside

Berkshire County's crisis response team and 48-hour debriefs

Emotional suppression as a double edged sword

The volunteer's double life after a multi-fatality call

Emotional contagion and learning to read your crew

Sleep disruption, recovery debt, and the sleep riddle

A psychological safety leadership certification for officers

Military lessons on culture: work with people, not above them

So take a listen to hear what he has to share.

Head to www.smartfirefighting.com to discover how SFF accelerates innovation for emergency responders, to find out when our next event is, or review our curated resources.

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Chapters

0:00 Intro
2:07 Marc's background
7:23 Firehouse culture and leadership
11:32 Inviting the conversation
14:33 Emotional suppression as a tool
21:12 Officers knowing their firefighters
23:56 The perfect storm of mental health risk
26:32 What recovery debt means
29:22 Sleep as recovery
34:10 Culture and screening tools
35:37 Lessons from the military
49:15 Where we are and where we hope to be
52:45 Words to live by

Questions answered in this episode

What does Marc Wysocki mean by 'recovery debt' for firefighters?

Marc Wysocki explains that recovery debt builds when firefighters don't get enough time between shifts to recover physically and mentally. After a 24-hour shift, two days off may not be enough because you have to jump back into life, family, and side jobs. The body and mind need recovery time, but firefighters often don't realize this debt is building until it affects them.

Hear it at 26:35

How does Marc Wysocki define a 'safe to talk culture' in the fire service?

Marc Wysocki says a safe to talk culture is having a calm presence and an environment where firefighters feel comfortable speaking up. He describes it as part of operational readiness and emphasizes it should be instilled from day one in fire academies, becoming embedded in the culture so future leaders carry it forward.

Hear it at 50:03

What leadership lesson did Marc Wysocki learn from his brother in the Navy?

Marc Wysocki's brother, a 32 year Navy aviator and squadron commander, told him that as an officer you want people to work with you, not under you. Tell them why as much as you can and show them the direction and goals. His brother's crew respected him because he gave respect back and explained the why, not just because I said so.

Hear it at 36:25

How does emotional suppression work as both a tool and a problem for firefighters?

Marc Wysocki says emotional suppression can be a necessary tool on scene to get the job done, but unhealthy long term suppression becomes a problem. He describes how volunteers especially may suppress emotions longer because they return to jobs where coworkers don't understand what they witnessed, and that suppression can overflow into other areas of life.

Hear it at 15:44

What does Marc Wysocki see as the future firehouse culture in 2035?

Marc Wysocki hopes that by 2035 there will be a safe to talk culture where a young firefighter can walk through the bay doors and feel comfortable talking with fellow firefighters or knocking on the captain's door. He wants firefighters to realize they can speak up if something is going sideways so they don't endanger themselves or the crew on a call.

Hear it at 50:03

Transcript

Machine transcript of the published audio. Names may be misspelled and some sections are missing.

Ep 324 transcript

Firefighters Are Tactical Athletes: Recovery Debt, Sleep, and the Safe to Talk Culture with Marc Wysocki

Speakers: Kevin Sofen, Marc Wysocki

Source: Whisper medium.en machine transcription of the published Podbean audio (no original transcript found in Drive), lightly cleaned. Speakers were separated by voice clustering and then checked and assigned by hand at every speaker change. Gaps where the model returned no usable text are marked [inaudible m:ss].

[0:01] Marc Wysocki: and

[0:31] Kevin Sofen: How's it going, man? [inaudible 0:32]

[1:01] Marc Wysocki: , for public high school, that's just the title He [inaudible 1:35] Very honored to be part of this and help pushing our department forward.

[2:07] Kevin Sofen: Well, I imagine that your background from this [inaudible 2:14]

[2:37] Marc Wysocki: Absolutely. So also I was I just finished grad school as well, getting my doctor [inaudible 2:52] that's put on them. [inaudible 3:09]

[3:37] Kevin Sofen: and now a fighter and now a fighter to tos t

[4:11] Marc Wysocki: so part of it [inaudible 4:13] And that dropped. And we were going over the psychology, mostly [inaudible 4:39]

[5:08] Kevin Sofen: - [inaudible 5:38]

[6:38] Marc Wysocki: I mean everyone needs that check

[6:43] Kevin Sofen: And it's that mindset of, well, how can I complain about this nightmare [inaudible 6:46] Yes, you're, it's not apples to apples in terms of what you're going through going through and what they're going through, but you can't completely discredit and belittle what you're going through because that is a factor into maybe what's causing some of these struggles you are going through if you're willing to admit it.

[7:23] Marc Wysocki: Yeah, I think part of it is the culture that you have through your leadership in the firehouse. And I think overall firefighters in the station. You know, whatever day they can just feel what kind of day it's going to be, what's going on, how they're doing, so forth. So I think a part of it is the code. And I think another part is working on the overall environment of firefighters. Having, not treating this as, and we need to fix this right away. I think it needs to be part of just operational . readiness. I know our SEAL teams, military, that's just part of like their checklist, not just saying you good, and then let's go, you know, their officers are sitting-s sitting down with their enlisted and making sure, you know, you're there in the right head space. You know, obviously there are times where we gotta compartmentalize on the spot and you gotta worry about that later because we gotta take care of this. I have. understand that happens. But when you keep adding more and more apartments or trying to jam it in that one compartment, it's gonna overflow and spill into other areas of your life.

[8:43] Kevin Sofen: And I think this kind of ties into your next point that I really liked about, again, firefighters are humans. They're not robots. And there's that other dynamic too, thinking that, you know, this heroism dynamic of where Dr. Burton Clark talks a lot about this, he's one of the judges, but your essay pushed back in this heroic, almost robotic image of firefighters and how they're expected to perform superhuman feats with limited resources while also carrying family, financial and personal stresses that don't really make it into the public narrative. And that's sort of, there's this challenge of this disconnect and all these underlying factors. but I'm, curious in the sort of this dynamic of this hero story of where in the society does love the hero image of firefighters, but it also creates this trap where again, there's a story that firefighters can just handle it and we just compartmentalize stuff and just bury it. But how is that narrative of firefighters seen as heroes and firefighters are almost robots and their ability to handle feelings contributing to some of these challenges and these mental health struggles that you've seen first and third in your life.

[10:00] Marc Wysocki: neurosurgeon on the spot. Like I said before, we're always rolling up on a person's worst day or worse moment in life at that point and they want that superhero to come save And so I think they can almost get beaten down to a shell and almost bleed mentally. You know don't see it physically on them because nothing happens, but they're taking a beating on the inside and they're still getting up and they're still doing it. And, you know, and yeah, like I said, going back to caramelizing, you know, the hero's going to tuck it away, but afterwards they're riding back on the rig or the ambulance. and you know, they're trying to decompress or it's so bad they're just, you know, giving the thousand yard stare and going back to leadership is like, you know, you have to be aware of the scene, safety, that's, you know, the 360, all that. But afterwards, you have to see that back at the fire station or the ambulance garage or the police station, like checking in with your young guns and your firefighters like, hey, I know that was a bad one. You know, I'm not just asking you fine, Like, you wanna talk, you know. I know that's probably the first real bad one you've seen. You know, let'st sit down and talk. It's okay to talk.

[11:32] Kevin Sofen: And like on that, of the ability to invite that conversation, maybe that is kind of a leadership dynamic and we're talking a lot about that. Did you mention the kind of creating that safe psychological space? How does one do that? And I know there's a lot of this, like you just mentioned earlier, firefighters can kind of just smell what the day is gonna be like, that does kind of start from a top-down leadership perspective and normalizing that it's okay to not be okay. It's okay to be able to be vulnerable and have these conversations. Going to therapy doesn't make you weak. It actually makes you strong. How have you tried to normalize that and are there different leadership leaders that you've seen do it very well and maybe any examples of it happening well and examples of it not happening so well?

[12:14] Marc Wysocki: One thing that I think goes very well, this is a shout out to Berkshire County that I'm in. We have a, crisis response team that helps out first responders after calls. So dispatch or dispatches that we have, if we have any fatalities, that team is will be aware of it and they will contact the chief or the supervisor, whoever, like, Hey, we're here, ready to set up a debrief. And the good thing about all Friday chiefs, they're in like, we're having this, we'll have our, you know, within 48 hours. We have our tactical, you know, we go through the steps. We all sit in a circle. They just sit there off this side, wait till we're done. And then they step in. They say, you know, you want to speak that my county has done. And I am really appreciative of that. So I think that's huge. I think that's, you know, such a huge step. Like it doesn't matter, you know, it's not just fire department, EMS, police, whoever, you know, even the dispatchers too, they'll check on too. Cause they're, you know, constantly taking that bombardment of information as well. So I'm very, you know, lucky with that. And I think that's, how did I become Lieutenant? just a little after the pandemic. And just using my end as injured athletes and that realm I come from when I first earned my first bugle is like I said, checking in on our firefighters more, giving them a voice, like pulling them aside. Like I know, sometimes they sometimes they may not feel comfortable around other firefighters or more of the old timers, you know, like suck it up, kind of mentality, but just, you know, working on that culture overall is, you know, like they can feel the vibe, like it's all right. I like, I can go talk to Marc. I can go talk to one of the offs if it's, you know, if it's, you know, not just besides a call, you know, life happens as well outside.

[14:33] Kevin Sofen: You mentioned that term emotional suppression and how it can be considered a tool and how in some regards, you know, maybe you do need to have emotional suppression if you're on scene and you need to get the job done and that there is that on and compartmentalization that is valuable to job at hand. But then there's also this unhealthy long term suppression, where it is a challenge where we just kind of bury stuff and you mentioned in your essay too there was just a mundane normal call or one of your fellow officers you saw just broke down and it wasn't any particular call. But you've kind of touched on this already a tool and actually have this [inaudible 15:17]

[15:44] Marc Wysocki: the morgue and all that. And then I had to go back to work as a volunteer, you know, obviously people, you know, social media, they knew about the accident and because the major roadway was shut down for hours and they go, were you there? And all I said was, yeah, I was there, you know, but I'm, you know, now I got to go back to my educational world with teachers and staff. Like, I can't talk to them. And it's like, no, I'm not, you know, they just don't get it. You know, it's not something I would spill out to a teacher who would, you know, they wouldn't understand, you know, what I saw in the depth. And so sometimes that emotional suppression lasts longer, unfortunately. I would say, especially for volunteers, because they have to, you know, go back to their jobs where people would don't understand it. They thought, you know, just that, going back to our superhero angle as well can be really tough, trying to find one of my fellow firefighters officers and just talk about the call later somehow.

[16:53] Kevin Sofen: And you know better than anyone about how firefighting is a team sport. It really is. But there's also this, maybe this whole idea of silence without breaking the trust where many firefighters worry that maybe opening up will burden the crew or change how they're seen. kind of breaking through this masculine, you know, deal with it, move on and rub some dirt on it, move on. But what does that look like practically to create conversations about mental health and the fire service like and how you that your own situation right there about, you know, maybe you've kind of built that mental fortitude to where you feel confident and being able to do that, but again, of where you shouldn't feel. Like you breaking. You're I and you know [inaudible 17:40]

[18:08] Marc Wysocki: Maybe we can just start talking about the part that you did. Maybe we just start tactically, just to ease our way into the other side, which I know is the toughest part to admit, you know, you saw something really bad. But yeah, that's the way I try to use it, just to ease into it, not just go right up to them. You know, I see you don't look good. What's wrong? I would not do that to anyone. But just going one more thing about going back to that call when we had a couple younger on we were literally just waiting around. We couldn't touch anything, couldn't do anything. And a couple of them had that 1,000 yard stare. And even I said, I go, that wasn't, that was brutal. You know, I go, I'm feeling it too. So I just want to, you know, you're not alone just saying just saying a few things like that, just to, you know, let them take a deep breath and you did fine. Like everyone did

[19:32] Kevin Sofen: will be tragic for some and how have you dealt with that? How do you overcome that so you don't have that emotional burden caring? I mean, it's almost impossible to completely ignore it, but kind of live with that reality.

[19:44] Marc Wysocki: Well, personally, for me, I know, just human physiology a lot more. So it was kind of less for me, like, and plus being an EMT first, having a lot more medical calls. I was just used to death hab- or we did all we can. They hung on for a little while and then that was it. So, but I knew I always, you know, obviously you always go back on your skills and stuff, but like I just over times, like I did what I could to help that person. And I also, you know, also reminding our younger firefighters, you know, we did what you asked you know, we told you to do X, Y,. Z. You definitely did it. You didn't put anyone in danger. He did great, but also part about the mental part, what I see if people come out, you can put your crew at risk, definitely. But just like that paragraph I said about my paramedic friend, that was probably a thousand or 2000 things that built up and something triggered inside of him. So whether you paid or volunteer, something's, not going well at the station or at home, It's happening over and over again. You're worrying about messing up. something else is happening. And that's just building and building. Now when you get to a call, you can put everyone at risk, and not even notice it.

[21:12] Kevin Sofen: One word you mentioned in your essay that it reminded me of the movie not too long ago, Contagion. And when I think of contagion, I think of a virus that is kind of the, not the good kind, but in this, the emotional contagion and how one person's unprocessed trauma can spread through a cure. You've. You've kind of touched on this, but to dive into this emotional contagion dynamic, what are some of these subtle signs that maybe someone within the department is carrying some of this emotional residue and I think you've probably handled it better than most being the great leader that you are, but tell me a little bit more about kind of this concept of emotional contagion and how again it can be addressed head on to hopefully prevent like you said something the preventing a firefighter maybe on scene of cracking to where it is detrimental to the entire crew?

[22:03] Marc Wysocki: Well, I think that's one thing about being officers, really getting to know your firefighters, not just the skills, like knowing them, knowing they have a family or siblings, hobbies. Now you have to remember everything, but just every time like, oh, they like this and they have this, but just getting to know them. So from the firefighter's perspective, the officer, He wants to know me and what I do, but also I can keep that in my memory bank. I know Joe always talks about hunting or hiking. And then when I've asked him the past three times, like, nah, just hang out at home. You know, they kind of like, they've lost that spark, something at home, you know, they're just not themselves. Noticing little things like that. Or if I notice maybe use the hard skills, like one of my driver, you know, the engineer who I can, I don't even have to worry about the left seat. All of a sudden, you know, they're going too fast or they're not, the pumps are not going like they should. So I mean, it's just getting to know the person and keeping that on your radar, I think is a big thing. Just making that connection, not just I'm the captain you're the firefighter do your job getting a seat. You know, that's not gonna work anymore.

[23:23] Kevin Sofen: I talk about this with various industry partners and just people in general, like what's the best way to talk to someone? Just find some commonalities, talk about sports, talk about hobbies, don't even talk about the product or the fire or whatever, just being able to hear, get the person talking and get them to light up. I think that helps build a relationship. And like you mentioned, obnoxious having this power dynamic that you're my, I'm your boss. But I think that like you said, you were able to then spot that, may be going on, which we may need to unpack in some capacity.

[23:56] Marc Wysocki: Just to continue to dive into some parts of your essay that caught my attention, you

[24:14] Kevin Sofen: mentioned this perfect storm of mental health risk, of this confluence, I love that word , confluence when thinking of whether it's a bunch of river streams coming together in a confluence, but this dynamic of emotional suppression culture, interrupted recovery cycles, the sleep disruption, close quarter, emotional contagion in the firehouse, identity fusion, expanding mission scope where we're being trained for one thing, but actually doing another. It's this combination, like not any single factor that makes firefighting really a challenge. And it actually does, the question was, what makes the fire service so unique? I mean, those are pretty unique factors that does create a unique dynamic for the fire service. So I'd like for you to address that head on to where, yes, the fire service is unique

[25:28] Marc Wysocki: just because that's the way it was. Or if you did, you're kind of laying there but you still pumped full of, a cortisol and adrenaline from the last call that just happened an hour ago and it's the middle of the night. I know that's a big tangled mess. You know, I've seen more fire houses being built where you can select the bell that goes off in your room to your assignment, which I think is great. You can hit the touch screen, like, Hey I'm on engine one or I'm on the ambulance. and that's all I need to hear. So I think that's a step in the right direction, for sure. But if you only have a three man crew that night, you're gonna get it all, or your ambulance crew, and there's only four of you, they're gonna call them both with just how to figure out the sleep riddle. I think we'll definitely...

[26:32] Kevin Sofen: You mentioned that term recovery debt. What does that mean?

[26:35] Marc Wysocki: When you have a shift 24 hours, 48, whatever it is, it may have been great, it may have been long, but your body needs to recover from all that. And say you have a 24 and you're coming back in two days, that's probably not going to be enough for your body and your mind as well, you're gonna use that time when you get back, you know, you gotta jump back into life when you get back home, whether it be a family or what other side hustles you may have. And they're depending on you to put that first responder job away in the closet and now be this person. And that's a lot asking on your body mentally and physically. So you are creating that debt and you don't even realize it. You just think, oh, I got two days off, I'll be fine. And day three comes around and just roll back in. Well, that debt is gonna build and build mentally and physically and on you.

[27:37] Kevin Sofen: Similar to how it works in financial debt is similar to anything, the debt and taxes, things we can avoid, that debt eventually will creep up and it's just, we can't just, I mean, I think we can all have those nights or that mentality of we'll sleep when we're dead. And I think it's very proven, particularly within the athletics sphere, is that sleep is one of the biggest forms of [inaudible 28:08] I say sleep training, I'm sleep training my son, who's a nine month old and once they sleep, it's great. But a sleep analysis of putting these wearables on their firefighters and really tracking their sleep and kind of looking at their sleep performance and how that's translating into actual firefighter performance. And there's a lot of direct correlations and data showing how by managing and ensuring good sleep cycles that it's creating much better outcomes for firefighter operations. And, again, that phrase of sleeping your dead, why- for sleep is so important. You've kind of iterated on it, but I'm curious about any other insights you have about how can we continue to drill into everyone's brain that sleep is not something that we need [inaudible 29:04]

[29:22] Marc Wysocki: if your body keeps building up that debt. And that's where sleep comes in. It's the great, one of the best recovery tools you can ask for. I know we've had high caffeine days to put it nicely or nicotine. I know that happens. I'm not going to stick my head in the sand about it, but doing that over and over again is going to add to that debt. You're adding the tremendous amount of caffeine, nicotine, whatever it may be. you know trying to work in sleep in good sleep habits will help you in a long run mentally and physically like you know I can't state that As an athlete, first responder, everyone needs

[30:04] Kevin Sofen: needs it. So you've continued to do a great job and throughout the essay, you did a wonderful job kind of painting some of these challenges that exist within the fire service and where we're at now, but I now want to do somewhat of a transition to hearing some of your ideas for solutions because obviously a lot of these people can kind of sit around and just talk about everything that's messed up within the firehouse and why the fire service is broken And you could do that for a lot of industries. But I'm curious to What is it?

[30:53] Marc Wysocki: Just a slight lighter note, when I was typing it up, I could hear the groans and moans from officers and battalion commanders if they ever saw this come to fruition, like another checkbox, another class. But my idea, obviously, this is in a perfect world, to just park back to that operational readiness. [inaudible 31:17] like you say having a good vibe in. Economic them mentally as well. I'm not expecting every day to be roses and rainbows that doesn't happen but you know having at least a calm presence and while you're in command or just. The firehouse you know like having that safe to talk culture that's one thing safe to talk culture. I think that's the bottom line we need to have here. Obviously you do your 360 building, you gotta have that with your crew. And I think that's the aspects of part of this class.

[32:31] Kevin Sofen: Is this a class that exists now or how do we go about actually creating this, Marc?

[32:37] Marc Wysocki: That's a very good question. I think that would be some brainstorming, I would definitely would need [inaudible 32:44] culture is instilling it in the fire academies. Telling the firefighters, hey, one, we're not gonna fight fires all the time. We're gonna do a lot of VMS. We're almost gonna be part social workers and psychologists as well on the spot. And it's something they don't teach you. I'm not saying they have to get a social degree or a psychology degree, but having more of those soft skills, bedside manner, and then, but also getting that safe to talk culture embedded future. So when they rise up, the ranks, the older, you know, we have that built in. It's not just trying to knock down the old door of tradition. We're doing it this way now. Just, I think it's obviously gonna take time to help build that in and just be part of the culture.

[34:10] Kevin Sofen: To continue to expand upon that, about this idea of culture, another topic you mentioned was this, the assessment tools, like the organizational culture assessment instrument, or CAI, and how this is something that can kind of help, could be used for a mental health, awareness, cultural audit. Again, there's sort of a framework. What is this organizational, cultural assessment instrument and how, what's the structure of it and how can it be implemented to, again, continue to offer a holistic solution for the fire service to consider.

[34:43] Marc Wysocki: It's a good mental health screening tool that could be used. And obviously, letting the firefighters know, we're not gonna know your name. I think that's the first thing right off the bat. So, if we see red flags, obviously, we'll find a way to code it. If something pops up that we could pull that person side privately and say, hey, you know, I know you haven't talked about this, but, you know, we see, you know, there's something going on. We want to help. So I think it's just a good mental health screening. I know just going back to the athlete side, I know more colleges, they have that just part of your physical, because they realize that's part of you. We're not just checking the heart, lungs, brain, joints. Mental side is part of you, so we want to make sure all of you is taken care of.

[35:37] Kevin Sofen: One term that Chief Richard Kelly from Oklahoma City has said to me a few times is this idea of R&D, rip off and duplicate and sort of look at what other people are doing and just copy it for what we're doing. Of course it's different when you have these companies and patents and IP and stuff, but for most stuff, replicateable and I really liked your perspective on all things translating all things athletes into the fire service, but you also reference military special operations who are embracing psychological processing as part of the readiness. [inaudible 36:10]

[36:25] Marc Wysocki: learn from the military? Well, one thing I've learned from my brother, he served 32 years in the Navy as an aviator he had cultural angle that started a long ago because when I got my first bugle I called him I'm like hey you know I'm in the right seat now can you give me, some pointers as an officer and he said Marc first you want people to follow you and work with you they make sure they don't work under you they work with you tell them why as much as you can obviously there's times where you just have to do this which I understand in tactical moments but if you show them the why or tell them and show them direction that we're going with these goals, it makes things move forward easier. So I think just- My brother had a handle on it in culture long before these talks. So I, you know, I always go back to that. and especially in your generation is the, you know, why are we doing this? Which I think is good. You know, not just cause I said so. I think it makes us. with that like hey we have these goals and we want to try to reach these not be a robot I think that's one part I definitely learned from him and I got to see it firsthand. I got to go on a cruise with, it's called a Tiger Cruise, sorry I'm going off on a story here, but it'll come back around. So you get to go on the aircraft carrier after you get vetted. And we went from Hawaii to San Diego and I was walking around his part of the squadron and they were all nice, friendly. you know, I didn't have any, anything on me that said my last name because as soon as I said it, They stood up a little bit, because he was the commander the squadron at the time. I'm just like, hey, I'm just a brother. And he's like, man, I don't care. You get the same respect, because we give it to him and he gives it back. One guy said, I'll forget it. He goes, I grab a trash can lid and a stick if he told me to get in there to go to war. And I was like, wow. That's the kind of culture you want. People willing to work with you're not under him unless you piss him off. Then you're going to be under for a while and then he'll pull you back up. But I met every department that he was in charge of, you know, it was just that he had them working together. it didn't matter the rank I ran into, didn't matter. They were all working together to get those goals because he tells them the why. So I, you know, I was fortunate to see that firsthand. And he's told me, also, you know,.

[40:00] Kevin Sofen: think about how that can be applied to the fire service. And a lot of this stems from just being a leader, willing to know your team, and to, like you say, keep asking why until we can't ask why anymore, and get to know your team beyond just the rank, and making it so people want to work with you, and know that you're working towards the same end goal. But part of this, of course, is creating the environment for, hey, it's okay to not be okay. Hey, it's okay to go to therapy. hey, it's okay to maybe need a day off. And granted, I know there's different generational speak thinking, oh, these Gen Z, they're all softies. I actually, it's funny, I think about, one time I saw, he used to be the Executive Director of the National Fallen Firefighter Foundation, John Tippett. He gave a presentation about a year ago, and there was a quote on there that said I this generation has everything handed to them on the platter, they don't know what rules respect are, they're just, they're lazy and they have everything given to them and they don't want to work and yada. And without looking at it, you would have thought that's maybe probably what like boomers are saying about millennials or it's maybe what, you know, boomers are saying about Gen Z. And John was like, you know, when do you think this quote was said? And that's what I would have thought. But it generations of, oh, it's different that the way I've done it, but that these generations think different, but we need to open ourselves up to embracing these differences while, like your brother taught you, of kind of, hey, we're all working together for the same end goal.

[42:07] Marc Wysocki: Right, so as an officer, you know, the way I've seen it, is like, you've already signed the papers, you've come through the door, you want to make that commitment. And from day one, and I just, you know, and the volunteer aspect, retention and culture, the two top things to keep the [inaudible 42:43] attic, obviously there can be times you can sit back and you got to what's going on. But if you know, like we've had carpenters like, do you want to give ideas to build something for a drill, or to help the fire station tell us, you know, we'll get the resources well, you know, we want to make them feel like they're contributing. Not just like, I have to get on the call and go and do it. That's gonna be part of it. We're gonna do our drills, no doubt and help you get there as being a better firefighter. But I think just having them right away involved and buy in to the fire department is a big step. I can say at least, you know, I'm going from the volunteer aspect with the retention and culture.

[43:38] Kevin Sofen: I mean, I'm an early father in the sense that my son's only nine months old, but from watching some of my siblings and doing the various reading, a lot of it talks about with raising a kid. They don't necessarily want something done for them. They want to be included, and as opposed to, again, doing all the chores for them, I think it's, in a certain way, it's similar in that when you feel like you're included and you feel like you're contributing, it just, there's a psychological component of you just feel more invested and you feel more willing to want to support and want to be part of this team. But it does all start from the top. I mean, if you don't have a leadership that embraces the team, the differences, and again, working together as a team, it's probably gonna crack. So yeah, I mean, we've been kind of going all around here and I really appreciate this conversation. But one other thing that I was when I was that struck me on your essay was actually like the final line or two. And it was this you talked about courage and this whole idea of redefining courage. And you close your essay by saying that the real test of courage isn't just running into burning buildings, but challenging deeply held assumptions when they know service. And I

[45:05] Marc Wysocki: superhero or, you know, we're human found, you know, plain simple. And being a firefighter or a police officer, an anti paramedic, that's got to be part of your life, not your life. Just sidestepping one second back to what I do in athletes is a big part of it. My, you know, I try to make them realize being hockey player football, that's part of your life. And I think, check [inaudible 46:34]

[47:04] Kevin Sofen: why they need to do something and why they need to do something or what what was what would be made of hope that you would give to them about how again you don't have to accept that it's a spiraling hill spiraling ball going downhill and there's nothing you can do but what would you say about how they could start with again a step towards dealing with some of these

[47:21] Marc Wysocki: challenges i think mentally they for some reason they can't take off the uniform or the bunker gear and hopefully they have a good support system around them. Family, friends, mentor, officer. I think to have that. Anchor somewhere and not have that anchor in alcohol or something else that can be detrimental. You know, I'm not saying don't drink or other stuff, but I'm just saying that's the wrong kind of anchor in my opinion. And then I've come home after calls, silent. You know, I just said it was a bad call. It's just, you know, sat there for a while, but, you know, I realized from my experience that, you know, need to work on slowly re-engaging and catch my traction again. But I understand that there are men and women that are stuck, you know, after the shift. Like they might only feel their worth is being in that uniform. And it's not, so it's a job. You know, I always, I saw a good quote, I'm not gonna say it right, but you can be replaced tomorrow. someone's gonna fill your spot. You know, so you gotta remember that's your job. Yeah, you can love it, and obviously bond, have lifelong friends, I mean, it's very unique, you know, living with individuals on the paid side, you know, 24, 48 hours, you're gonna bond with them. But you gotta still remember that's a job. And working on that line and that recovery goes hand in hand.

[49:15] Kevin Sofen: So one thing that your essay got me thinking about too, is where we are now, and where we hope to be. And so you did a great job, and this conversation's continued to enlighten me on some of these underlying challenges, but also some of these, you know, human behavioral, psychological suggestions and changes that we can implement. But I also think about this, the Bill Gates quote of most people overestimate what they can do in a year, and they underestimate what they can do in 10 years. And I'm curious in your hopeful vision for the Firehouse, where if we get this right, if culture and systems can evolve the way that you're calling for, what does the Firehouse of 2035 feel like for a. walking through those bay doors for the first time?

[50:03] Marc Wysocki: I think, and then hard skill-wise, the same expectations. You know, that physical talking with their fellow firefighters or you know what, knocking on the captain's door, like, hey, can we talk? You know, I just need a second voice in this, you know? And knowing that it's a safe to talk culture, I think is the biggest thing hopefully in 2035, overall, even for the, you know, the older officers that young firefighter walks into, like I can go talk to them. when, you know, if something's going sideways, you know, because, you know, they're realizing that at that point, you know, I don't want to endanger myself further or my crew on a call.

[51:11] Kevin Sofen: Thanks Marc for sharing that. And I think it's leaders like you and it's organizations like Darley and N-F-F and your, you know, all things Sheffield, Volunteer Fire Department and Berkshire that are our significant players in this as well as anyone listening, where if you wanna get involved and participate in the essay contest next year, or just can work with different organizations that are trying to drive change, I mean, the NFFF and the International Association of Fire Chiefs and Darlene, these groups are, they're doing what they can, but we can't do this alone, and it's easy to look at the world and the situation, glass half empty and apathetic, and just say this is the way it is, but it doesn't always have to be that way, and there's that other phrase I think you had mentioned too It's an evolution, not a revolution. And I think that's the mindset where, again, we can't just think that the fire service traditions are gonna be completely evolved overnight, but little by little, we can continue to make the fire service the best damn profession in the world, and make it a great job that people wanna continue to pursue. And so I'm curious in sort of any final parting thoughts where maybe two part final is you've obviously gave a lot of good quotes and insights throughout your essay and talking today, but are there any other words of wisdom or a quote that you live by, that's sort of like, you know, I see you got the bulletin board behind you and you got some posters up there. I mean, is there anything that you see that kind of, really resets you or grind, you know, grind the right way or something that you could share with us?

[52:45] Marc Wysocki: Sure, one, you actually reminded me when you said the glass is half full. I saw a new term, it's half refillable. So there's always that chant, you can, bring it back up. So see the glass is half refolible. One thing that it's taken me a the while to talk positively to myself. I think that's the biggest thing, you know, you're going to have times you get down on yourself, but don't keep doing it. That's taken me a long time as a first responder, you know, especially like in the beginning when, you know, things I thought were my fault where I did something wrong. That's taken me a long time to like, hey, I know my set of skills, I know what I can do, I know what I can't do, and I know what I can learn, but just overall, not looking in the mirror and just working, not talking negatively to myself has made a huge difference in who I am.

[53:44] Kevin Sofen: Well said, Marc, and I'll continue to embody that too. We can all be a little kinder to ourselves. I mean, it's easy to be very critical to the work and I mean, it's easy to be very critical of the work and what we are doing, what we're not doing and all these different factors, but if you're not going to cheer yourself up, if you're not your biggest fan, who will be? Great, that's where it's important to have support networks and of course, family members and friends that can pick you up when you're down, but we all can be a little bit kinder to ourselves. So thank you, Marc. And I guess the final parting thoughts, I mean, it's December 18th, I know this will probably air sometime in the Q1 in 2026, but what are you most excited about in 2026? Any new year's goals or just kind of initiatives or things that you're working on beyond your, with the university or the fire service, what are you most excited about?

[54:30] Marc Wysocki: Oh, I'm also kind of like the de facto grant writer. So I always have those in the department. so that's, like I said, leaning in, like doing grad work and research. So doing the grant stuff is, you know, kind of in my wheelhouse. So always having those and working with Chief on that. And then just being more formalized. You , is the best way I can describe it. You know, modern SOGs and SOPs, whatever other verbiage you want to use, but just working towards more professional volunteerism [inaudible 55:10] And that just stuck in our household.

[55:50] Kevin Sofen: Hey, the G-man have had some good years. Yes.

[55:53] Marc Wysocki: Not recently.

[55:55] Kevin Sofen: Not recently, but two Super Bowls the memories and also beat your local Patriots twice. That's a good thing for bragging rights forever that Eli has over Tom. But yeah, I'm a die-hard, irrationally emotional Green Bay Packers fan.

[56:11] Marc Wysocki: You got a big game coming.

[56:13] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, and I live in Chicago, so it's a hot topic here. But yeah, it's a big game Saturday versus the Bears. We beat them in Lambeau, but we just lost my caparstons, which was unfortunate, but no one's feeling bad for us and now it's just a matter of gotta pick yourself up and go perform, but it's, I do love sports in the sense that it's a good chance to, it's a little bit of escapism from other things and it's good to be a sports fan. It's good to be emotional about sports and yeah, well, it's not the Giants here, but I do think you got a good quarterback and running back hopefully to build on.

[56:44] Marc Wysocki: And wide receiver.

[56:46] Kevin Sofen: And wide receiver, just a little bit of the injury bug, so I'm hoping that the G-Men will come back stronger next year.

[56:53] Marc Wysocki: Just two things about the Packers. One, do you wear the green and yellow around?

[56:57] Kevin Sofen: I wish I had, I literally have green bit packers underwear, I'm not wearing it now though. But I have green bit packers everything, and my son can make every decision he wants in life, and I want to support his individuality and creativity. The only decision he does not have is his NFL sports. He's a Green Bay Packers fan and I've already got his, I got plenty of apparel and photos of it already.

[57:18] Marc Wysocki: Well, one of my doctoral classmates, she's an athletic trainer for the Packers.

[57:23] Kevin Sofen: Oh, cool.

[57:24] Marc Wysocki: Yeah, so I get to, yeah, see her on TV and cheer on.

[57:27] Kevin Sofen: That's so cool.

[57:28] Marc Wysocki: Yes.

[57:29] Kevin Sofen: Cool, well, go Packers, go G-men. And most importantly, thank you, Marc, for everything that you're doing for the Fire Service. look forward to continue to stay in touch and collaborate and again thanks for all the fire service thank you