Episode 323: How a Fire Department Decides What Tech to Buy with Eric Linnenburger

Episode notes

The biggest constraint most fire departments face is not money. It is being shorthanded. Over 90% of a typical fire budget goes to personnel, which leaves almost nothing for the next great tool and no spare bandwidth to chase every vendor at the trade show.

Hello Smart Firefighting Community!

Welcome to another episode of covering real world innovations via interviews with fire service and technology industry experts that empower YOU to develop your very own Smart Firefighting strategy.

Eric Linnenburger spent roughly twenty-six years climbing every rank at Westminster Fire Department on Colorado's front range, then found out on a Friday that he was a deputy chief starting Monday. He is also the voice behind Ops Talk , where he digs into the people, the work, and the ideas moving the fire service forward.

This conversation gets into how a real department decides what technology to buy, what kills a bad idea fast, and the honest state of the playbook around lithium-ion and EV battery fires.

Topics covered:

The Friday-to-Monday jump from battalion chief to deputy chief

The schmedium model: a six-station department that runs like a 35-station region

Bringing the right stakeholders to the room before buying anything

Force multiplier versus one more screen for an overloaded firefighter

The RFID system that looked great on paper and just moved the work

Apps that stuck: tablet command and on-scene translation

Lithium-ion and EV fires, blankets, and guidelines that have to evolve

Data centers and energy storage as the next risk on the horizon

Wildfire in the urban interface and the Marshall Fire wake-up call

Clean data, open APIs, and avoiding vendor lock-in with CAD to CAD

So take a listen to hear what he has to share.

Head to www.smartfirefighting.com to discover how SFF accelerates innovation for emergency responders, to find out when our next event is, or review our curated resources.

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Chapters

1. 1:06 Welcome and Eric's role
2. 8:14 Technology Eric has evaluated
3. 12:30 Getting crews involved early
4. 17:43 Growing acceptance of new tech
5. 21:25 Keeping software simple and AI guidelines
6. 28:15 Real challenges vs. perceived risks
7. 31:29 Working with builders
8. 33:56 A national mega topic
9. 43:12 Vendors, subscriptions and silos
10. 46:08 CAD-to-CAD hubs
11. 52:01 The future of the fire service
12. 54:03 Words to live by

Questions answered in this episode

How does Eric Linnenburger recommend departments approach implementing new technology?

Eric Linnenburger says when bringing in a product, you need to bring all the right stakeholders into the room, including external partners. He mentions that it's not just point A to point B, and it's not just the operation either. He emphasizes thinking strategically and looking at all phases.

Hear it at 32:13

What makes a fire service technology product successful according to Eric Linnenburger?

Eric Linnenburger says a product needs to be intuitive enough and simple enough to pick up that even skeptical old-timers will adopt it. He also stresses the importance of products being firefighter proof, meaning they don't require extensive training or maintenance to use effectively.

Hear it at 18:31

What challenge does Eric Linnenburger see with EV fire response beyond extinguishment?

He says the call he got about a battery storage fire showed that it's not just about putting the fire out. Departments have to make judgment calls on scene about decontaminating gear, deciding who qualifies for CO2 decon versus traditional extraction decon, and those procedures are still evolving.

Hear it at 26:21

What does Eric Linnenburger want from software vendors for the fire service?

He wants vendors to make updates part of the subscription without extra fees, be transparent about costs upfront, and create systems that integrate with each other through clean APIs. He compares it to the Apple model where updates push automatically without charging the end user separately.

Hear it at 47:17

What is Eric Linnenburger excited about for the future of the fire service?

Eric Linnenburger says the fire service has made more progress in the last five years than in the previous 20 years combined. He is also excited about wearable technology for health, wellness, location tracking, and accountability on the fireground.

Hear it at 52:01

Transcript

Machine transcript of the published audio. Names may be misspelled and some sections are missing.

Ep 323 transcript

How a Fire Department Decides What Tech to Buy with Eric Linnenburger

Speakers: Kevin Sofen, Eric Linnenburger

Source: Whisper medium.en machine transcription of the published Podbean audio (no original transcript found in Drive), lightly cleaned. Speakers were separated by voice clustering and then checked and assigned by hand at every speaker change. Gaps where the model returned no usable text are marked [inaudible m:ss].

[1:06] Kevin Sofen: what technology to buy, what kills a bad

[1:36] Eric Linnenburger: Hey, it's good to have you here. So I saw, well first you [inaudible 2:06] , and you know we had some changes within, and they happened [inaudible 3:21] battalion chief, so I had some influence on- In the first place I was [inaudible 4:13] And then settle in really fast. Went well, on to the next one. Very binary, very focused. In this role, you have to be engaged at all levels. You have to know a little bit about what's you know a little bit about what's going on everywhere and you deal with those people that [inaudible 5:49]

[6:14] Kevin Sofen: figured out. And it's again, not just- kind of on the op side, but now kind of on the, admin [inaudible 6:21]

[6:44] Eric Linnenburger: of our- our own EMS transport, fire dual-role fire paramedics and fire EMTs. We also have all the gamet. of special teams. So we've got, you know, dive water rescue, urban search and rescue, all the different [inaudible 7:13] challenging. [inaudible 7:45]

[8:14] Kevin Sofen: quote, unquote, technology that you've looked [inaudible 8:18] how you. [inaudible 8:55]

[9:14] Eric Linnenburger: creative roles and even change your profile on LinkedIn and watch out, you know, the vendors [inaudible 9:21] over 90 [inaudible 9:59] So I think where our success has come with integrating technology [inaudible 10:58] But it's a [inaudible 12:07]

[12:30] Kevin Sofen: challenges in the beginning, and then them being involved, but I'm curious within your [inaudible 13:02]

[13:28] Eric Linnenburger: put-h we put it through the paces and now this is like saving his [inaudible 13:59] exactly paramedic rolling back into the space. But then it took someone. It. But then it took someone else in the background to actually input all those RFID's slap RFIDs stickers on all the equipment inventory, the equipment that was coming in order the new stuff. And so all we were doing was shift and responsibilities somewhere else. [inaudible 15:19] You roll-in And everything's And, you know. [inaudible 15:35] especially on the EMS side, making our members our members on scene more efficient [inaudible 16:10] we had to get on the same page, especially regionally, because we're one that took some time to implement and it's not a cheap product, but has been, I think, worth every penny. And we've continued to expand on that. And that was one that when it came in, I think we had some old-timers that were always pen-to-paper people that were a little skeptical about how it was going to work. But it was intuitive enough and simple enough to pick up that even those guys got on board with it. So I think that was a success story.

[17:43] Kevin Sofen: And has there been a growing acceptance and grin that I see this amongst my nieces and nephews who are like Gen Alpha and they were kind of born with tablets and screens in their faces. And I'm a millennial so I kind of was a part of my life without screens and I had a phone around 16 but didn't really get smartphones until it came on the scene around you know early, mid-2012 or so, when screens became big, but I'm curious that, obviously, with cell phones and tablets, are you seeing more members in your fire department embracing using tablets and even more so using smartphones and using the apps and using the apps as something that is, that is a accepted use of kind of a everyday tool?

[18:31] Eric Linnenburger: 100%, and it's more than just accepting right now, they're demanding it, honestly. And we've got one right now. I don't, like I was saying before, we are kind of bandwidth strapped and so I don't jump on every single product that comes my way, but we had one that I connected with recently. It's called Vital Voice and it's a transcription and AI translation service. This is just a simple app on the cell phone. and I was a little skeptical at first because we have plenty of AI transcription out there, but none of them are doing the things that they can do with security, like I was like I was talking about before. So it's all HIPAA compliant, you know, security sieges compliant, but they're working on that right now. But it's so darn simple to use and it's inexpensive to get into it, you know, and I know that these subscription services sometimes are kind of smoke and mirrors. That's another concern is that we need transparency up ahead of things. You know that this is going to be the cost and this is going to be the cost over time. But this is an intriguing one that we're in beta test mode with right now, and they're planning on doing a lot more with their product. But one example of why I think this works is, you know, I'd sent out, I had put so much time into sending out training videos and, you know, 10 easy steps to how to use this product, encouraging everyone to get out there and use it when we put it on the phones. And that's another piece too, not to sidetrack here, but we were able to push that app out remotely, just through our MDM. And so that is really helpful as well. If it needs a lot of upkeep and a lot of maintenance, it's not going to be well. [inaudible 20:18] that we were using Google Translate and the free services that are out there, and it scared the daylights out of them because of the security risk. And they're not HIPAA compliant either. And so when companies find a way to kind of fill those voids and make their product intuitive enough that it's firefighter proof, you're going to find some success. So that was one that we're in beta test mode still with them right now, but really hyped.

[21:25] Kevin Sofen: a couple to continue make these software solutions for the fire service, as stupid, simple and easy to use as possible so it doesn't require you to do four hours of onboarding batteries [inaudible 22:16] this topic for departments that haven't faced these issues and maybe are starting to now consider it more. I'm curious what are from your take, like what should departments have in place? I mean, what are some of the training equipment and data that's kind of across your desk right now? So kind of a high level open ended question on sort of what's on your mind right now with everything is EV related in some aware and what are some of the best practices that you think really are important to start considering?

[23:06] Eric Linnenburger: So, yeah, not an expert, but we are very aware and we're following everything. We've put out guidelines and then had to rescind them when we see the new research come out. And so an example of that is the EV blankets. Originally, they were touted that we would use them to extinguish fires. And then the, I think it was out of UL, the research comes out that, hey, no, these could cause smoke explosions. It's not the way to use them. However, they're still good product to use for exposures. And so it's all about adapting and not becoming so locked into those procedures that you can't pivot. With that said, I think that's where you have to start. You have to create some guidelines for your people based on best practice. What's worked for us is giving some guidelines But not making them so restrictive that people can't think when they're on scene as well So it's just following that research, you know, there are some really's really good training resources out there obviously the ul nist stuff that is constantly being updated and added to But there's you know people on youtube as well. There's a guy I think he goes by stashed on youtube phenomenal youtube channel on all things. Hazmat focuses a lot on EV, constantly watching the actual research. It's not just a clickbaity type of thing, he's watching the research. So you just have to, you have to get to talk to other departments about what they're doing as well. I think you need, if you are part of a region, you need a regional cooperative. You need to get on board with the region because you can't have, you know, everyone wanting to do different things. So it's building out those basics. I think, you know, there's still departments that are trying to decide if you're going to tilt the vehicle up and drench it with water or you're going to let-it burn or you're going to use blankets. So figuring out what that means as an organization. And we're still learning. I just got a call a couple of days ago from some a crews that were fighting. It was basically a warehouse fire. And then after the fact, we find out that it was a wall of battery, charging wall we had batteries burning in there. And so that's something I think we don't think about often. We're so locked into the EV, the electric car piece that we're forgetting about all the other lithium ion battery challenges that are around us. And so I think it's just get started with something, do something, and then just let your organizations, your people know that it's going to have to evolve over time.

[25:55] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, I think the one thing that is the most true thing is that change will continue to happen. And these policies are evolving and all these new technologies from vendors are great. But at the same time, we need to continue to vet them. And like with the blankets, it definitely a little. smoke and mirrors with that. And it's not the end all be all. It is a great tool that can be used as sometimes, but it is definitely not just the put a blanket on it and you're good to go.

[26:21] Eric Linnenburger: Yeah. And I think, you know, where I was going with that the phone call I got the other day with that, the battery storage fire that we had, you know, wasn't so much about how do we put the fire out. We're feeling, we're feeling better about that now. But it's the, it's the other things you don't think about. They were calling me to figure out how they need to decon their gear. And who qualifies for like a CO2 deconning versus traditional extraction, deconning. And so those are the things that I think are still evolving. And we're making judgment calls when we're we're making judgment calls when we're on scene. And of course we're going to err on the side of being conservative and going, taking all the measures, we also have to be responsible with that as well. And when we're taking people's gear away from them and sending it off to a company to be CO2 cleaned, there are downfalls that come with that, too. So I think it's evolving. We can't be a moth to the flame. We can't just focus on that EV car fire and how we're going to extinguish it. We have so much we have to think about. Are you working with your tow companies to make sure you've you've got an agreement in place that they'll even take that vehicle away. Will they come in and assist you? Will they help you? If you chain it up, will they pull that vehicle away from the structure? It's the relationships that need to be built. And I think that's what I'm most, I guess, invested in is the human side of what we do. And there are so many human relationships that have to be built. And it can't just be a binary do this, black-and-white do this, or do that when you're dealing with these scenarios. And then from there, it's like we're so locked into these EV vehicles that we're not ignoring the fact that there are these gigantic data centers and energy storage systems even in, you know, residential homes going up. But that's a huge risk to us and I think we can't get locked in on one thing. We need to understand the thing holistically.

[28:15] Kevin Sofen: Well, within your podcast, I mean, you talk about the people, the work, and the ideas driving the music, driving the industry forward. And granted, sometimes maybe we're chasing this EV component, which obviously deserves to be chased to some extent, but you see more and more of this rise of data centers in terms of the nuisance in regards to the noise and what it does to the power and water infrastructure grid. But then also again, what happens when the thing gets on fire and needing to have certain levels of NDAs in place being able to go in And then again, is it all private fire departments or private fire services versus working with municipalities? Bunch of kind of challenges within that whole scope. And I'm, I'm curious within your podcast you've had and just to maybe speak on some of these modern, recent five, 10 years of these big storage and data centers, what are you hearing in regards to some of the perceived challenges versus actual that the fire departments and fire service need to consider.

[29:18] Eric Linnenburger: Well, I think that's a good, a great point, the real challenges versus the perceived risks. And that's what I think we're operating on in so many I think what we need probably is better cooperation, collaboration between the developers, the manufacturers that are, you know, whether they're manufacturing the EV vehicle or the data center, we need to because perception is reality at that point. I hadn't even given it that much thought. As far as the data centerpiece, I was at the Executive Fire Officer program last week at the National Fire Academy and so in there with people from all over the country. And man, that was one of the biggest topics were these data centers coming into their jurisdictions. And it tends to be some of the not stereotype a little bit, but maybe a little bit of the under resourced areas, either those urban areas where they don't have a lot of open, you know, you know, they're, they're covering a lot of ground with very few resources, not a lot of communication. Going back and forth. And so I need to learn more about it opened my eyes and made me want to dig into it a little bit more, but I think it is a challenge. Anytime you create a structure that's that big, it's going to come with challenges. I mean, we've been dealing with that the last couple of years with these mid rise buildings that are being built, you know, I mean, a mid rise is just a high rise that's laid on its side. And so it seems like the fire protection aspect is kind of an afterthought when it comes to that. But it's changing the way that we do business because we're covering a lot of ground that we maybe didn't have to. And again, it's just knowledge is power. And when you get comfortable with this stuff, then it makes sense. But if you don't even understand how it's laid out, then it's just gonna enact fear.

[31:29] Kevin Sofen: You would like to think that a lot of these builders wanna be proactive in working with the fire department. I mean, unfortunately, sometimes people don't really care until the thing's on fire, but how have you gone about being proactive with building relationships? I mean, sometimes maybe you think these builders in these different industries kinda only respond to codes or violations or fees, but I'm sure there's some that are very proactive as well, but how have you gone about, you mentioned the towing company building relationships , from some of these new challenges meeting modern day consumerism convenience, how have you gone about building relationships and any suggestions to others about how to be proactive on that front?

[32:13] Eric Linnenburger: There's nothing special that I can say on that. I think it just, it does come down to the human side of it and it's anticipating it's when you're thinking, you're thinking strategically. So, like I said before, when you're looking at a product, you're bringing all the right stakeholders into the room. So among those stakeholders, when we're dealing with creating policies or how we're gonna respond to things, are we taking on our external learners as well? And so, it's looking at that, say when we're building that EV policy, I say, hey, how are we gonna start this thing from, you know, start to finish? And it's not just the operation either. And that's what I've learned so much about being in administration. and I'm still figuring out the hard way a lot of times is that it's not a point A to point B, [inaudible 32:57] They'll let you get in at all phases of the build and see it, see it when the framing goes up and then see it when the walls are up and then see, you know, come at the different, various phases of the operation. And I think that there's nothing that's what we've been doing as a fire service, forever, right, but now we're just having to deal with more, it's more than the structure itself. And the space, and the terms, it's, it's the technology behind this and the things that are, that are gonna potentially cause a potentially cause a problem.

[33:56] Kevin Sofen: Another mega topic that is whether I'd like to admit it or not is kind of impacting the entire country now. It's not just in the mountain areas or in the kind of the P&W business concept of wildfires and how we continue to see this evolution of Fire , the urban interface. And I mean- border and then two [inaudible 34:43] Again, it could be a conversation, but I'm curious from your on your perspective how you approach and manage

[35:17] Eric Linnenburger: Yeah, we had a big [inaudible 35:19] the-, [inaudible 37:49] these notification systems. [inaudible 39:23] But social media's an avenue, but social media And we have a small enough community within our own city at only 120-some thousand residents that we can go one-on-one with people and then they can tell their neighbors who tell their neighbors and especially getting into some of the senior citizen facilities and places like that where you can get a lot of people who are really engaged. But I think it's got to be a diverse approach, like we have to figure out what works and we need to talk [inaudible 42:31] necessarily, but we need them to be out there being our salespeople as well. And so that's on me to make sure that we're educating our crews and we're just hitting it from every direction. But yeah, it's a challenge. And I haven't heard of any community that's getting 100% compliance on these things.

[43:12] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, somewhat of an uphill battle that we've got to keep banging the drums on. Soavi, thank you for at least the efforts you're putting into that and hopefully stuff we can copy and deploy for others. And I'm curious now, it's June 29th, 2026, summertime. I'm curious as you have been in the weeds within the fire service for 26 years now. In five years, what do you think a well-run department looks like that is different than today? Obviously, there is this kind of a happy staff, and you have your various metrics of success and your different KPIs. I'm curious, what do you think will be different

[43:53] Eric Linnenburger: in want to silo their product and then put it into the subscription service, which is great if it works. But I think integration is key when we implement these systems that actually talk to one another. And I think it's utilizing data that's clean. I think our data collection and the quality of the data that we're collecting is just going to grow leaps and bounds over the next couple of years. Now we have challenges there because with AI and with all the promises that are out there, more does not equal better. But I think that we need to find those areas where we can make our data better. I think it's an expectation. we have higher expectations of us especially as leadership in the fire service than we ever have before. And we need to come up with this stuff fast. At a time when, years ago, we'd give some grace and allow someone some time to pull data sets and make it accurate. Now it's pretty much expected immediately. And so I think when we can find ways to shore up that data, create clean data, integrate our technologies that we have, make it so that they're not in opposition of one another, you know, nice clean APIs that allow us to work in that space. I think that's where it's at.. And then I think that the health and wellness component continues to gain steam and it just becomes second nature, that is a priority. Just like outfitting people with personal protective equipment and the right training, we're going to outfit people with the right tools to do their jobs and to do it for a long time, long healthy time and have a good retirement.

[46:08] Kevin Sofen: I'm bullish and excited about how the fire service will continue to brace some of these new tools and not just look at them as something that is disrupting their jobs or changing necessarily eliminating fire service jobs, but just continue to find ways to do their jobs better, faster, more efficient. And on the industry side, I couldn't agree more of just having clean data in, clean data out, API end points to where it's not just like, hey, you need to pay to extract this data, or you know, you don't technically own this data. [inaudible 46:41] and build their own softwares now, and I think, granted, if you are not a software company that is constantly iterating and making your data that you're creating very easy to use in other people's other platforms, I think you are at risk to becoming irrelevant. I don't know what your thoughts on that.

[47:17] Eric Linnenburger: Yeah, agree, 100%. And I think, too, it's being transparent in what's being offered. more like the, I guess the Apple model where we've all got a phone that updates automatically. They're pushing these updates and they're not charging me the end user for those updates. It's part of that kind of subscription service. And I think that's where companies need to look at where they can make things predictable for us. We don't have it. Like I said before, over 90% of almost every American Fire Department budget is going to personnel. We don't have the ability there. And so it leaves very little to build new fire stations to buy new technologies. You know we understand that there's going to be inflation every year with this subscription service, but make it clear up front. Try to guess those things and then make the updates part of the subscription. Don't create those friction points for us that all of a sudden make us scramble every time something needs to be updated or fixed to go find money for it. And we'll pay a little bit more upfront knowing that, but we need to take kind of that guesswork out of it. So yeah, I think anywhere we can just remove those friction points, make things as transparent as they can be and drop the egos and talk to each other because that's where the sweet stuff is going to happen. I think about a couple of years ago when we did create this automatic aid CAD to CAD system, there was one camp that wanted us to all take on the same CAD vendor and just do it that way. If everybody signs on with this particular CAD vendor, then we're already tied in together and we don't need to bring in an additional hub. We chose as a region to stay on our same vendors. We're at six, seven different departments, and we have, I think, four different CAD vendors in that mix. If we would have gone out and all taken on a new CAD system, the implementation, and we know none of them are going to be perfect, but even bigger than that was I think we didn't want to create a monopoly for one vendor where they've got that much So I think that's important as well, is that we're not locked into any one thing and that we can kind of hold each other accountable in the process.

[49:52] Kevin Sofen: Is that third-party CAD to CAD hub something that could be controlled copy replicated by others or other people?

[50:00] Eric Linnenburger: Other departments doing that. I'm not sure how many companies are out there providing this service I think that I think that it is something that could be done By others. Yeah, absolutely. This is a company called edc emerging digital technologies, I believe in there I think out of virginia or the east coast somewhere and Yeah, that's what that's their job is just to pull all of these different cad vendors together and talk a common language and so when the call comes into to our dispatch center and it shows that it's going to be, you know, a neighboring department is going to be closer. It's a push of a button instead of calling on the radio and doing all that. So it doesn't come without challenges, but man, there's solutions out there.

[50:47] Kevin Sofen: I need to dig more into that and I'm more curious to see if other fire departments in other regions are using that because that seems to be a good opportunity to leverage multiple CAD systems and not being controlled by one particular vendor while also benefiting from virtually having an interoperable CAD system amongst multiple departments across the region.

[51:10] Eric Linnenburger: Yeah. And they are, I think they've got a pretty big customer base, but I imagine there are other companies out there just like them.

[51:16] Kevin Sofen: Yeah. I'm curious to check it out. So kind of to close this out here, Eric, it's two questions, but I guess there's three in it. something right now, but with something that you're most excited about, and then something that also keeps you up at night. The other question I'm planting is any sort of favorite quotes or words of wisdom that you live by. So maybe I'll start with, you know, is there something right now, as I said, it's June 2026, something that you're really excited about and like, you know, you're, you're listening to podcasts and your walks or, you know, you're kind of thinking about as you're, as you're kind of driving on your commute. Anything in particular you're really excited about? And on the flip side, something that is sort of like keeping you up at night and you're like, man, this is a serious problem. Something is happening here.

[52:01] Eric Linnenburger: I'm actually excited about the future of the Fire Service. This is kind of broad. You know, we hear a lot of grumbling. I think it's pretty normal from generation to generation to complain about the next generation coming in and not doing it the way that we've always done it. But I'm excited. And like I said, I just came back from a week with peers and new friends, old friends at the National Fire Academy hearing about what people are doing across the country. It does feel like a two steps forward, one step back but I think we're making more progress right now in the fire service than we have. If you look at the last, you know, five to 10 years I think we've made more progress in that last just the last five years and we probably did in the last 20 years combined. So, I think, you know, I think I'm excited about, I've been geeking out a little bit about wearable technology. You know, I think that's getting me excited, you know, I've got my two fitness shamers on right now that keep me honest. But I think that there's a truly a place for it within the fire service on the health and wellness side. But then also on, you know, on the location side, the tax side. So I think we're going to see that continue to evolve. So really excited about that. I think what kind of keeps me up is just how we're going to continue at this pace without adding support. And I think that we're in that boat with every fire department across the country. I don't think there's any fire department that [inaudible 53:34] to be delivered on happening so fast, and then with all this new technology, this new information, we're trying to process it, we're trying to make good decisions, and I think it's just coming at us so I worry that the bottom's gonna fall out at some point. So I think it's just, you know, just trying to keep up, just trying to keep up.

[54:03] Kevin Sofen: And lastly, any favorite quotes or words with them that can be sport related, it could be anything, I'm curious what.

[54:12] Eric Linnenburger: And I'm a quote dork. So I could probably just name a few. I could just pick up my water bottle and, you know, I've got quotes all over it. So the one I'm looking at right now is don't don't believe everything you think. So don't get so caught up in your own ideas that you're not listening to other perspectives or to think that you're not wrong in the situation. One that I heard the other day or recently, I was at my daughter's college graduation and it was a commencement speaker and he's talking to a whole group of these are honors students and so they're high flyers, they care about their academics, but their academic path has been served on a platter to them. And you know, black and white, go here, go there. And he said, the people that are going to survive in this world are going to have ambiguity tolerance. And so I've been thinking a lot about ambiguity tolerance lately, and especially in the space that we're in, where we work in this binary reactionary environment where there's a right or wrong and I

[55:41] Kevin Sofen: happen. evolving and changing and just to own it and just continue the role of the punches.

[56:18] Eric Linnenburger: Yeah, 100%. And I think it's where we struggle. You know, we're time to be reactionary. That's how we're supposed to be when we run operations. But it's all that other time, that 90% time that both on the scene and off the scene as well that you have to embrace the gray. And we have people that just can't work through that. But I think we need to take in these extra tools, whether it be technologies, trainings. That doesn't take the gray away. It only helps us to make it a little more clear and help us

[57:07] Kevin Sofen: sometimes that can be a little bit defeating, but almost like in the best of three series between the Cubs and the Brewers, I mean, just try and win two of the three. It's a long season, and if you can kind of just continuously there's that Steve Jobs phrase, we overestimate what we can do in a year, we underestimate what we can do in a decade, I think we're all hard on ourselves and I liked your other quote too of, don't believe everything you think. Even if you're sometimes think, man, like I should be farther along or man, I suck at this or whatever it may be, but just surround yourself as like this or the other team members like you mentioned and just kind of continuously focusing on that incremental improvement each and every day.

[57:56] Eric Linnenburger: A hundred percent, just keep fighting the good fight. You know, a lot of cliche in there, but it's so true and it's hard. It's hard because we sit there and we wanna see those tangible wins. And sometimes we don when you're that engaged in the process, you sometimes don't see it until you reflect on it later, but just know that you are making progress and it's worth it.

[58:18] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, right on. Well, Eric, it's been a pleasure. I feel like we could probably spend another hour going to a range of topics, but I'm excited to spotlight this and stay in touch. And TSI is going to be in the backyard early December. So I look forward to seeing and engaging with you there and following up on a range of other projects. So yeah, just thanks for the time today and I look forward to continue to stay in touch.

[58:41] Eric Linnenburger: Thanks for having me on and keep up the good work. Appreciate you.

[58:44] Kevin Sofen: Thanks Eric.