Episode 304: When Fire Engineering Fails, Firefighters Pay the Price with Richard Mills

Episode notes

What happens when a building is not as safe as everyone assumed it was?

Hello Smart Firefighting Community!

Welcome to another episode of covering real world innovations via interviews with fire service and technology industry experts that empower YOU to develop your very own Smart Firefighting strategy.

Recorded live at the Institution of Fire Engineers (IFE) 2025 Conference alongside the AFAC, WAFA, and Australian Institute for Disaster Resilience Conference in Perth, Australia.

Former London Fire Brigade Deputy Commissioner Richard Mills joins the show to share what changed after Grenfell and what still needs to change now.

Richard walks through the hard reality of high rise fires, including the human impact on residents, firefighters, control operators, and command staff. He explains how operational learning turned into real policy shifts, including improved procedures, better training, stronger connections between the fire ground and control, and the push for respiratory protection tools like breathing apparatus telemetry and public fire escape hoods.

This conversation is a clear reminder that fire safety cannot be treated as an afterthought. From design to maintenance to operations, every role matters, and the cost of getting it wrong lands on the public and the crews who respond. Richard also shares what gives him hope, and why his personal rule for life and leadership is simple: keep moving.

So take a listen to hear what he has to share.

Head to www.smartfirefighting.com to discover how SFF accelerates innovation for emergency responders, to find out when our next event is, or review our curated resources.

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Chapters

1. 0:00 Intro, live from Perth
2. 0:47 Meet Richard Mills, former LFB Deputy Commissioner
3. 1:34 Operational learning after Grenfell
4. 2:55 Why the Grenfell lessons must not be forgotten
5. 5:26 How tall building firefighting changed
6. 7:46 Firefighters are not superheroes
7. 9:57 Safety ahead of profit
8. 13:24 Building safety legislation and single staircases
9. 16:48 How Grenfell changed him
10. 20:08 What gives him hope
11. 22:15 Words to live by: keep moving

Questions answered in this episode

What is Richard Mills doing on his Australia roadshow?

Richard Mills says he is presenting operational learning from the Grenfell Tower fire in 2017, where 72 people died, and sharing detailed lessons on respiratory protection. He mentions developing equipment and that a suggestion came from a firefighter about a product that was first used in London and subsequently went through the UK as part of recommendations from the inquiry.

Hear it at 1:55

What changes did London Fire Brigade make after Grenfell?

Richard Mills says the brigade reviewed all procedures and training shortly after Grenfell, identified gaps, improved equipment like fire escape hoods, developed better procedures for fire survival guidance calls, and created an app to connect the fire ground incident commander and control operators speaking to trapped people.

Hear it at 5:55

Why does Richard Mills emphasize that firefighters are not superheroes?

He wants the industry and engineers to recognize that firefighters face physiological strain and that better building safety design, such as suppression systems that contain fire to its compartment of origin, reduces the burden on crews and prevents large-scale evacuations and repairs.

Hear it at 8:57

What is his advice to people working in fire safety and engineering?

Richard Mills says everyone from design to management to maintenance to operations must put their piece of the jigsaw together. Unless all parts work together, the building will not be safe. He urges people to learn the lessons from Grenfell and not forget them.

Hear it at 20:27

What personal motto does Richard Mills share?

Keep moving. He says he has seen people stand still and lose their health or decide not to pursue ideas. He encourages people to keep evolving, whether going for promotion or feeding brilliant ideas into the organization as career firefighters.

Hear it at 22:27

Transcript

Machine transcript of the published audio. Names may be misspelled and some sections are missing.

Ep 304 transcript

When Fire Engineering Fails, Firefighters Pay the Price with Richard Mills

Speakers: Kevin Sofen, Richard Mills

Source: Whisper medium.en machine transcription of the published Podbean audio (no original transcript found in Drive), lightly cleaned. Speakers were separated by voice clustering and then checked and assigned by hand at every speaker change. Gaps where the model returned no usable text are marked [inaudible m:ss].

[0:00] Kevin Sofen: Welcome to our podcast mini-series recorded live at the Institution of Fire Engineers 2025 conference in Perth, Australia, alongside the AFAC, WAFA. And the Australian Institute for Disaster Resilience conferences with over 28 conversations with fire chiefs, engineers, researchers and innovators, we explored how the fire and emergency community is adapting to a rapidly changing world from climate. Resilience and community led adaption to the rise of new technologies like satellites, AI, and simple tools designed for the field, to the importance of mental health, diversity, and the importance of the shared challenges and inspiring solutions shaping the future of safety. Enjoy. I'm grateful to be sitting alongside the one and only Richard Mills, the former deputy commissioner of the London Fire Brigade. Richard, how are you doing?

[0:54] Richard Mills: Good, thank you. How are you?

[0:56] Kevin Sofen: Doing well. You enjoying your time down under?

[0:58] Richard Mills: I absolutely love Australia. It's the second time I've been. I came in May. I've never been to Australia before, but I'm being treated very well.

[1:05] Kevin Sofen: Ryan and the IFE take good care of us.

[1:07] Richard Mills: They are very good. Ryan is an absolute brilliant ex-president now, and I'm sure Jason is going to do just as well in his new post.

[1:14] Kevin Sofen: I mean, they're putting me to work, really putting you to work. So, you got a whole little road trip, road tour after this, right?

[1:21] Richard Mills: Yes, yeah. I did a road show in May and they kind of invited me back. We're literally to be leaving today and our first stop's gonna be Adelaide. And then we've got three more cities to do after that. So, I've got a whole week. Of doing a roadshow.

[1:34] Kevin Sofen: I know you've got a wealth of experience within the roles in the fire service and in a couple different events that have happened throughout your career that have led us, a [inaudible 1:45]

[1:55] Richard Mills: around the operational learning that came out very tragic in 2017 where 72 people sadly lost more detailed learning around respiratory protection. So, I'm looking, I'm looking at things like the use of [inaudible 2:15] something that came from the ground up, the suggestion came from a and said there's a product out there that if you do isn't used in the UK and we'd like to develop it and use it on fire stations. It was used in London for the first time, and then it subsequently went through the UK as part of the recommendations from the inquiry.

[2:55] Kevin Sofen: So a lot that we can unpack there, and I'm curious, I wanna first thank you for your presentation there today. I had never seen some of those that happened in 2014 with the Grenfell Tower. It's not something that we've really talked about in this podcast ever, and I know you have given more presentations on it than I'm sure you would like, but it's a big thing of how to continue to understand what happened and use those lessons learned to get better and make sure that we don't let any of those lives lost go in vain and continue to learn and apply a very high level, what happened that night. And I want to then dive into a little bit of how we continue to learn, grow and get better from some of the lessons learned.

[3:37] Richard Mills: Yeah, I think it's a very fine line when we talk about Grenfell. I'm really passionate about making sure that those lessons that are learned are not forgotten and that people across the world learn about the huge event, the tragedy of it all, to make sure that information is shared. There are many examples of high-rise fires, cladding fires and it's really important we share the tragic mistakes that were made. The inquiry highlighted where those gaps were within both the operational fire service and also within the industry. I've done a similar kind of thing that we're doing now as part of the F out all of that, this is, Grenfell but also the wider impact that's had on the fire service and the fire crews and control operators and officers that attended on the night. We will always look back and think would we, could we, should we have done better and absolutely there will be people that will be sitting there thinking that and agreeing that. But my role is to hopefully You've never seen a thought of it from the angle, then I feel. I and we're doing something like this on the back of it. So thank you for acknowledging that.

[5:03] Kevin Sofen: Absolutely and I mean I sometimes we all need a little bit of reminders here and there about why we do what we do and why we wake up in the morning and play and are fortunate to be able to play this game of life but ultimately why we're driven to continue to try and help doing the best to preserve life and property. and I'm curious in where we're at today some of these gaps that existed to hopefully continuing to, and of course there was a range of different issues. You know, we've got the Institution of Fire Engineers, there's the engineering side, there's the general human side, there's the firefighter side, but from just a public safety operator perspective, how have we reshaped how we approach tall building fires, vertical fires. So where we're at today.

[5:55] Richard Mills: So, very shortly after, obviously Grenfell happened, I was in charge of the the policy department at the time. We carried out a full review of all of the procedures and training. We've identified gaps and improvements that we should make So- that was both within equipment as a fire escape is the example I just gave, both using the training of our workforce, whether that's firefighters officers and developing better and more robust procedures, to identify and also to deal with fire survival guidance calls with control and an app was created that allows better connection between the fire ground, the incident commander and also the control operators that are speaking to people that may be trapped in buildings. There is still much more to do. When I do these speeches, I make it very know, the community environment. Everything I also put a bit of a around fire safety, the role of fire engineers, and that's why I try and put a very personal twist on when fire engineering goes wrong, when fire engineering goes wrong or materials aren't installed correctly the aftermath is the public and the emergency responders that I really enjoy coming and working with the Institute of Fire Engineers because it's such a broad, a spectrum of people that come, such a range of information. I've learned a lot about fire and I think we've learned a- you learn a lot around the operational side a, in the conversations I have.

[7:46] Kevin Sofen: they're not superheroes. And I think sometimes maybe people just have this mindset that if and their free power and free will with other training and equipment. I was very struck by [inaudible 8:06] Why is that so critically to continue to enable the possible prevent [inaudible 8:33]

[8:57] Richard Mills: if we're not put the forefront of that [inaudible 9:02] awareness and a greater physiological on a strain on them. I really want the industry [inaudible 9:35] So putting safety ahead of profit, I absolutely understand if we want extra facilities that may come at a commercial cost but if we can extingu. We can extinguish that fire, whether that's through suppression systems or firefighting, then the whole structure of that building and the integrity of that building is better. You're not having to evacuate lots of people and rehouse them while you carry out major repairs because it is contained within the compartment of origin. for vehicles, we have all these kinds of things around protection

[10:42] Kevin Sofen: are a community in that high rights block I mean that's one of the big reasons why my wife. I bought the car we did purely from safety rating and it's funny you think about it yeah we spent a lot of time in there but we spent a lot more time inside [inaudible 11:00] sort of thing that is desirable. [inaudible 11:29]

[11:54] Richard Mills: these the way in which I appreciate different countries public body, the fire service, they won't go to the hospital. The hospital is more expensive. For that person to stay five days in America for example,. different funding streams, two different government organizations. But it should not be. Beyond , the realms of any organization. Who should put their, principles of any strategies about saving life, improving the life of the community. So. It's about funding a funding. And it's a, I can read off and it's recognizing that if you fund over here, you can save over there. [inaudible 13:03]

[13:24] Kevin Sofen: The point you made earlier and maybe it was from the earlier conversations we've had this week it's kind of the blur. [inaudible 13:33] 2028.. I guess in standards world, that's tomorrow, so much a construction happening and happening today, tomorrow, and leading up to 2028, I'm just kind of a [inaudible 14:07]

[14:24] Richard Mills: This is all about the legislation that's to come in. It was introduced to last year, 2024, but obviously will be re- a single staircase. Even this long since 2017 when the fire happened, you are still getting people designing single staircases because the legislation. I [inaudible 14:56] building blocks where they go well we don't necessarily need it, we're not required to. [inaudible 15:28] Whether that's, Whether that's, We will still have thousands of high-rise buildings that will have We'll still have buildings that won't [inaudible 16:02]

[16:18] Kevin Sofen: better off. You said a few words that I really stood out to me. [inaudible 16:26] happened. And now I've spent small enough time with you About our families and especially looking at our kids about just like How we do anything for them. To continue to enable them, having the best possible life. There are these things that happen that changes, and, you know, for me becoming a dad was one of those. But then I also know for you, besides becoming a father, was Grenfell was something that is now forever woven into your DNA. But I'm curious of how Grenfell changed you as a person and now how , you're continuing to use that to drive the rest of your career to continue to make the biggest positive impact as possible.

[17:23] Richard Mills: The Grenfell Tower, you know, affected all of us. You know, I'm not alone in that, particularly on the night the cruise that were there. I wasn't, I wasn't there on the night I was involved in a strategic park outside, but I went there in subsequent days to assist in the respectful identification removal of those individuals and ran the incident. What has fundamentally affected . affected pretty the whole organization for many months and many years there in my the moral drive, that [inaudible 18:31] what they'd, been involved in, but are also driving those changes for the organization. The [inaudible 18:48] to the Keel influence. I'm not alone and I'm quite open that actually I had more a profound impact in the subsequent days when I walked the tower and it dawned on me how horrific those things would have been for both the residents, the community, and the firefighters that we're attending. There are lots of things that will stick in my mind, but it's it's my duty and the duty of everybody. [inaudible 19:42] emergency services.

[20:08] Kevin Sofen: Cheers Richard, I appreciate the mindset that you've continued to embrace along with all your fellow colleagues. And again, we're here now, it's August 2025 we're doing this road show, maybe a spin of optimism. What are you hopeful for and excited about with where we're at with fire safety, fire suppression, fire engineering a lot a what gives you hope.

[20:27] Richard Mills: So what I like to say is when you when you come to places what I like to to to Hardingham, from the National Fire Chief's Council. He retired, he was the chair of National Fire Chief's Council, and he gave an incredible speech. Now, the auditorium And it was a very early speech in the day, but it was full and it was full of a very broad range of people from broad range of industry. And it was about the learnings from Grenfell, the fact that people were prepared to get up early, be the first ones. There sit there and listen and learn to where things you haven it, that is now happening where you live. So my plea to anybody in that room or anybody that I speak to is, you are one of the many parts that will make sure that building is safe and unless all of you do that, and unless from design to management to maintenance and to operations, unless you all put that piece of the jigsaw together, your piece of that jigsaw, unless it all goes together, you won't have a safe concept So, whether you fit a fire door or fit a ventilation system so that I'm trying to get across, he's learned those lessons and don't forget them.

[22:01] Kevin Sofen: Well said. Yeah. And everyone in that room, every little action and every piece of work that you do within the public safety realm has a meaning and has purpose. Yeah, it really takes a bill. So, I'm curious. Final thing, The final thing, Richard, is within your role of past former deputy commissioner, can you share with the fire brigade, part of this roadshow and just being here in Perth and just being a dad, is there and any quote or words of wisdom that you live by that's something that keeps you going.

[22:27] Richard Mills: So keep moving. I think it's the one kind of statement I would do that keep moving in life. I think I've seen many people stand still and either lose their health and decide [inaudible 22:43] and say to him, keep moving, you. Very intelligent, articulate. Young man, you've got some great ideas. Take that, if you want to go for promotion, go for promotion. If not, feed into the organization. We need career firefighters. We absolutely do. But we also need those career firefighters to help feed that information. is someone that doesn't make those decisions at the top, but has brilliant that has brilliant ideas. He kept moving. He kept evolving and he so don't stand still, don't stand still in life. Don't Ricton, I appreciate it.

[23:56] Kevin Sofen: Keep moving, my friend. [inaudible 24:00] . Take care and thanks for listening.