Episode 299: Fire Service Leadership, Climate Truth, and the Courage to Speak Up with Greg Mullins

Episode notes

How do you stay honest about risk when the world around you is changing faster than the systems meant to protect it?

Hello Smart Firefighting Community!

Welcome to another episode of covering real world innovations via interviews with fire service and technology industry experts that empower YOU to develop your very own Smart Firefighting strategy.

Recorded live at the Institution of Fire Engineers (IFE) 2025 Conference alongside the AFAC, WAFA, and Australian Institute for Disaster Resilience Conference in Perth, Australia.

Greg Mullins has lived every part of the fire service, from teenage volunteer to Commissioner of Fire and Rescue in New South Wales. With more than fifty years of experience across Australia and around the world, he reflects on the moment he realized fire behavior was changing in ways that no longer aligned with the patterns the profession once relied on.

He shares how Black Summer sharpened his concern about political inaction, why public trust in firefighters still matters, and how his work with Emergency Leaders for Climate Action grew from a simple belief that truth and safety must come before comfort.

Greg also explains why collaboration between fire engineers and frontline responders strengthens community protection, how education opened unexpected doors in his own career, and why optimism remains essential in high risk work. His perspective is steady, candid, and grounded in decades of service to communities on their hardest days.

So take a listen to hear what he has to share.

Head to www.smartfirefighting.com to discover how SFF accelerates innovation for emergency responders, to find out when our next event is, or review our curated resources.

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Chapters

1. 0:00 Intro, live from Perth
2. 0:42 Fifty years in the fire service
3. 1:34 What he loves about the job
4. 2:10 Why Emergency Leaders for Climate Action exists
5. 4:06 Black Summer and not feeling safe
6. 5:32 Optimism and bringing kids into the world
7. 7:42 Climate action through the ballot box
8. 10:36 Solar, subsidies and the fossil fuel lobby
9. 11:48 The role of the Institution of Fire Engineers
10. 13:44 Words to live by: if not now, when?

Questions answered in this episode

What is Emergency Leaders for Climate Action?

Greg Mullins explains it is a group of 38 former fire and emergency service chiefs from every state and territory in Australia. They are vocal with government about the need to take climate action, to reduce emissions, and to adapt to what is already happening and what will get worse.

Hear it at 2:18

Why did Greg Mullins start speaking up about climate change?

In the early 2000s, after traveling overseas and speaking to other fire services, he heard that equipment and procedures were getting better, but fires were getting worse. He started reading papers about climate change and realized the planet was heating because of burning coal, oil, and gas, which was directly causing bigger and more destructive fires, floods, heat waves, and droughts.

Hear it at 2:18

How does Greg Mullins feel about safety now after the Black Summer fires?

He says he does not feel safe anymore because of what the planet might throw at people next. He has watched floods, cyclones coming further south than ever before, and year after year of record disasters, and he does not think the political class has people's backs.

Hear it at 4:24

What is Greg Mullins's advice about taking climate action?

As a firefighter, you have to be optimistic and start somewhere, even when situations look overwhelming. Everyone can do their bit through voting, speaking up as experts, and showing leadership. He says you cannot give up because there will not be an economy a century from now if people keep going the way they are.

Hear it at 6:55

What does Greg Mullins say about the role of the Institution of Fire Engineers?

He says the IFE helped open his mind and later enabled him to do a master's degree. It brought engineers and firefighters together, lifting the level of knowledge in fire services while helping engineers create solutions that were practical from a firefighting point of view. He calls this meeting of the minds crucial.

Hear it at 12:27

Transcript

Machine transcript of the published audio. Names may be misspelled and some sections are missing.

Ep 299 transcript

Fire Service Leadership, Climate Truth, and the Courage to Speak Up with Greg Mullins

Speakers: Kevin Sofen, Greg Mullins

Source: Whisper medium.en machine transcription of the published Podbean audio (no original transcript found in Drive), lightly cleaned. Speakers were separated by voice clustering and then checked and assigned by hand at every speaker change. Gaps where the model returned no usable text are marked [inaudible m:ss].

[0:00] Kevin Sofen: Welcome to our podcast mini-series recorded live at the Institution of Fire Engineers 2025 conference in Perth, Australia, alongside the AFAC, WAFA, and the Australian Institute for Disaster Resilience Conferences. With over 28 conversations with fire chiefs, engineers, researchers, and innovators, we explored how the fire and emergency community is adapting to a rapidly changing world. From climate resilience and community-led adaption to the rise of new technologies, like satellites, AI, and simple tools designed for the field, the importance of mental health, diversity, and global collaboration. These episodes highlight the shared challenges and inspiring solutions shaping the future of safety. Enjoy. Greg Mullins, how you doing? You know a thing or two about AFAC and you've been to the show a few times. How's it going for you?

[0:54] Greg Mullins: Yeah, look, so I've been a firefighter since 1972 and I've been to many AFAC conferences. I R was President of AFAC for probably four or five years prior to me retiring in 2017 as Commissioner of Fire and Rescue and now I'm a volunteer firefighter with the New South Wales RFS. So I've been pretty involved for over 50 years now.

[1:15] Kevin Sofen: From career firefighter to commissioner to president of AFAC to now a volunteer, you've kind of gone full circle.

[1:22] Greg Mullins: Yeah, well, I actually started as a volunteer when I was a teenager. My father was a volunteer firefighter and then finished school, became a career firefighter for 39 years and then back to where I started.

[1:34] Kevin Sofen: What do you love about the fire service?

[1:36] Greg Mullins: Helping people. I mean, it's the things that I've seen over the years I've worked across Australia and UK, France, Spain, Canada, the US. And it's the same everywhere, languages might be different, the procedures are slightly different. But on the worst day of people's lives, if they don't know who to call, they call the fire service. And it's just such an incredible privilege to be able to help the people on that worst day of their life. And that's pushed my buttons for all those years and still pushes them and it's hugely rewarding.

[2:10] Kevin Sofen: And this part pushed your buttons to what I'm looking at here, the Emergency Leaders for Climate Action. What is it and why does it exist?

[2:18] Greg Mullins: Yeah, look, because I was a firefighter for so long, and my father was a volunteer firefighter for more than 60 years, I knew how the fire seasons were. I knew about the fire weather, and to cut a long story short, the 1990s were pretty reliable over the years, over two centuries. I did a Churchill fellowship and went overseas, spoke to other fire services for three months and they all said the same thing. Santorum They said our equipment, our procedures are getting better, but we're losing the battle, the fires are getting worse, and we're not sure why, and then started reading some papers about climate change and thought, oh my God, the planet's heat because of what we do, and burning coal oil and gas, and that's directly translating in bigger fires, more destructive fires, floods, heat waves, droughts, you name it. So from the early 2000s, I really felt it was a mission as a public safety professional leading one of the world's biggest fire services, I needed to speak up and after retirement, I wasn't going to stop. So Emergency Leaders for Climate Action at the moment, 38 former fire and emergency service chiefs from every state and territory in Australia. And we're very vocal with government about the need to take climate action, to mitigate emissions and to adapt to what's already happening and what's going to get worse, no matter what we do now. And we had [inaudible 3:49]

[4:06] Kevin Sofen: I know there's these moments in our life effort, the so-called Black Summer of 2020. How has that changed everything for you?

[4:24] Greg Mullins: I don't feel safe anymore. [inaudible 4:25] what the planet is going to throw at us next. I've watched floods in Texas sweeping away dozens of kids, massive floods in Pakistan, Spain, Europe's burning at Canada's burning. We have hundreds of Australian firefighters over there helping. And we've had since the fires just year after year of record floods, cyclones coming further south than ever before. And I don't feel safe because I don't think the political class has our back. I have to say, how do I be nice about this? I think they're basically boff heads. A lot of the politicians who climate denial. So they mustn't be looking out the window. And that worries, I have kids and grand kids. So, I think it's really galvanizing. That means we must do what we can.

[5:32] Kevin Sofen: I just had my first child a son named William about five and a half, six months ago. And it's definitely different when you bring a life into this world. And you're thinking about, wow, how can I truly do what I can to make it better than I found it. But there are some of these different extenuating circumstances, particularly the issues of climate change. And you think. it's relent of. My wife and I had, I had extensive conversations about this. I mean, there are these concerns about bringing a human to this world. I don't think that's reason for not to take action. But I think it is now kind of. that I wanna set this conversation to you about, it's a reading here too in the paper about, you know, reducing climate pollution and reducing, phasing out fossil fuels, and I agree wholeheartedly. But I also know how that translates into, well, we have capitalist societies that are striving to make as. much money in certain ways, and it's always a challenge to actually accomplish some of these things and hear the Paris Climate Accords and again, all these words on paper that sound good, but still translating it into governments working with big oil and big industry and actually implementing restrictions and implementing these phase out plans. It's hard to actually lead into, again, substantive change and I'm curious in kind of like your take on it and your view of, I know you said you didn't feel unsafe, but then your view of optimism about how we can drive this kind of substantive change to address some of these quote unquote big wicked problems.

[6:55] Greg Mullins: Yeah, look, I'm really sad to hear that you felt you needed to have that conversation, But I'm hearing that more and more, people saying, can we bring kids into this world? And it's a world a world with a lot of problems and you know, far more than we're going to go into today. And climate change is driving a lot of those problems. And as a firefighter, you have to be optimistic because you run into situations where everyone else is running away and you don't ever say, well, no, it's too much. I can't actually do anything. I'm going home now, put the fire truck away. you do what you can and you start somewhere. And I've been to situations where, you know, people are hanging out of every window in the building with smoke coming out behind me. My God, what do we do? Well, you start somewhere and then you just keep going and you keep going. Look, the elections here, the national elections in 2022, the climate-denying government was swept out of power. We had this new movement, the Teal independents, who were basically conservative people sick and tired of the Liberal National Coalition because of their climate denial on a platform of openness, honesty and climate action. And they've grown. There's [inaudible 8:07] that doesn't exist now. It gives me hope that people can take action through the ballot box. [inaudible 8:28] five-chiefs talking, we realized, yeah, we have to do something. And so, everyone can do their bit, and we have to, because it's like, well, what happens to our economy? There won't be an R&D economy in that century's time. We'll be back to that, you know, living in caves and things if we keep going the way we are. Just tropical diseases coming south, is it? There's so many impacts of climate change, some of which we don't understand yet. And I'm just talking about natural disasters. It's very clear. You just got to look out the window and the fossil fuel industry will have you, for example, in Australia they say, we employ so many people. Well, they don't. There's about 30,000 people and that's it. So that's a small number, but yes, they have big impact. So we need to transition to rare earths, different things, value adding, making green steel. much we can do to ensure that our economy remains vibrant and successful, but you gotta start somewhere, and it's about making a start and showing that leadership. And I think it's lacking. I really feel it's... lacking. So it's up to us as voters and as experts in our fields to speak up.

[10:05] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, and it's that balance of, granted, we have our certain institutions that are all great and dandy, but the need for urgent action knowing that, hey, we can't just keep doing what we've always been doing. We need to continue to have advocates and leaders like you as working with whether it's the oil and gas industry and public safety and the, you know, architecture and, you know, building and housing authorities to continue to address that status quo in the way we've been going is not going to be sustainable.

[10:36] Greg Mullins: No, well, not for the next, you know, we really need to get the scientists, say, zero by 20 2035 to head off two degrees of warming, but a moment we're heading towards three degrees of warming.

[10:47] Kevin Sofen: 10 years away.

[10:49] Greg Mullins: Yeah. So, and again, why wouldn't you go to solar or a cheaper? People are struggling with power bills, cost of living. My roof is covered in solar panels, I've got a battery, I've got two electric vehicles. We pay nothing in petrol. We don't have an electricity bill. So it makes sense, the subsidies that are out there. And the Australian. The Australian government subsidises a fossil fuel industry, the chin of $11 billion a year makes sense that the fossil fuel industry lobby, who interfered in our last election with massive misinformation campaigns. They're dishonest. They're liars. We need to take action against them. We need to tax them disaster levies to pay for moving them out of catastrophic bushfire areas, retrofitting homes to bushfire standards because that money is going to come from where so why not the people who are causing it.

[11:48] Kevin Sofen: Yeah. And so as I look up here on Emergency Leaders for Climate Action, there's a contact us and I'm learning more about the work you're doing. It's a lot of collaboration between different stakeholders. I also know that obviously no Mark Riley and Ryan Cleggett and Jason De Silva and a lot of the groups, a lot of the members from the institution, the fire and engineers, I'm curious in your take in the, as you continue to work across different organizations, the role of the institution, the fire engineers, this kind of bridge between the engineering world and the fire protection, the fire safety world, fire protection and fire safety. What is the work they do so important? And kind of what's your take in terms of this bridge between the fire service community and the fire engineering community?

[12:27] Greg Mullins: Yeah, look, I've lived through this and I'm, I'm, I'm a previous office there in FIFE Australia and I'm FIFE Australia and my fellow institution of fire and there had to be more.. So I started looking around for things I could study and it was IFE, we had exams, I did the graduate exam and the membership exams, and it helped me in my career. But I look back at that, it actually paved the way years later for me to do a master's degree in management. even though didn't. Even though I didn't have an undergrad degree, the university accepted that as equivalent, the studies that I'd done. But it opened my mind. And later, I mean, it was a fire service sink, later when engineers, fire engineers came in, it lifted the level of knowledge in the fire services, but it helped the engineers because they were coming up with solutions that were sometimes impractical from a firefighting point of view. So have a meeting of the minds, and that's the role the IFE traditionally has played and continues to play, and I just think it's crucial and it's a wonderful thing to see how it's grown.

[13:38] Kevin Sofen: Yeah. Well. I have to pinch myself being able to have the opportunity to be here and talk with gentlemen like yourself. So thank you. And I'm curious to kind of round us out here. Are there any quotes or words of wisdom that you live by that drive your work with Emergency Leaders for Climate Action or you talked about being a grandfather and a father, any quotes or words of wisdom that you can share

[14:02] Greg Mullins: the fires, we had a press conference and I was asked a question by journalists saying that the prime minister, Scott Morrison said, now is not the time to talk about climate change when homes are burning and people are losing their lives. And I just said, well, if not now, when? Because they don't want that conversation to happen at all. to have it now and the victims want to know why. I know, you know, I, as a firefighter, I know victims of climate, change, want to know what the hell's going on and how their kids can be kept safe. If not now, when?

[14:37] Kevin Sofen: Thanks Greg. Appreciate it. Nice talking to you. And that's a wrap for this episode of the Smart Firefighting podcast. If you found value in this conversation, hit like, leave a comment, share it to someone. And tell us what you enjoyed most. Take care, and thanks for listening.