Episode 286: Building Simple, Scalable Tech for Firefighters and Warfighters with Paul Couston

Episode notes

Here’s why technology must fit seamlessly into firefighter operations:

Hello Smart Firefighting Community!

Welcome to another episode of covering real world innovations via interviews with fire service and technology industry experts that empower YOU to develop your very own Smart Firefighting strategy!

In this episode:

Why simpler technology drives better adoption

Proof that science alone isn’t enough without operational usability

How to push through resistance and set the stage for safer operations

Hear from Paul Couston - the co-founder and CEO of Ascent Integrated Tech .

Paul shares his journey from dropping out of engineering school to building rugged solar generators for the Air Force before launching Ascent. He reflects on the early iterations, lessons from failed prototypes, and the importance of designing technology that is operationally relevant and firefighter-driven.

Paul explains how Ascent pivoted from bulky systems to smartwatches, creating a simple, scalable accountability tool that firefighters and incident commanders can use every day. He also discusses leadership, change adoption, and his vision for TAK and wearable tech to reshape safety in both the fire service and the military.

So take a listen to hear what he has to share!

Head to www.smartfirefighting.com to discover how SFF accelerates innovation for emergency responders, to find out when our next event is, or review our curated resources!

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Chapters

1. 0:00 Intro
2. 0:43 Live at the Ascent headquarters with Paul Couston
3. 1:33 From engineering student to first defense contract
4. 2:47 Meeting Alex and the early days of Ascent
5. 5:30 Firefighters hate two things: change and the way things are
6. 6:45 The indoor location competition: great science, poor operational fit
7. 9:49 Don't try to fundamentally change the firefight
8. 11:43 Why the smartwatch
9. 14:13 Tools don't give you situational awareness
10. 15:06 Passive accountability on the wrist
11. 18:14 Physiological and health alerting
12. 21:28 Why a watch and not just a phone
13. 24:43 Leadership and pushing past resistance
14. 28:21 Courage, mistakes and TAK
15. 31:30 What the fire service can learn from the DoD
16. 34:06 What Paul is most excited about
17. 36:33 Memento mori
18. 39:06 Wrap

Questions answered in this episode

What did Paul Couston build before founding Ascent Integrated Tech?

Paul Couston says he built rugged solar deployable generators for the U.S. Air Force with his first company. He got that first defense contract before he could legally drink a beer and learned how to build and sell to government very early on.

Hear it at 1:33

Why did Ascent move from custom hardware to smartwatches?

Paul Couston explains that after 100 custom units were returned, the team realized the system required calibration, was bulky and prone to overheating, and changed the firefighter's ritual. They noticed half the firefighters already wore smartwatches, so building on familiar technology meant not fundamentally changing how a firefighter prepares for the job.

Hear it at 9:49

How does WearTAK work as an accountability tool?

Paul Couston describes it as a passive accountability tool. The operator does nothing for it to work, and the commander only has to turn on a screen to see where people are and how they are doing. The watch can detect falls, passivity, and physiological changes, then alert the incident commander without requiring the firefighter to push any buttons.

Hear it at 15:06

What percentage of firefighter line of duty deaths are cardiac related?

Paul Couston says the NFPA published a report showing close to half of all line of duty deaths were cardiac related, and he believes these are preventable deaths with the technology available today.

Hear it at 18:52

What does Paul Couston think will happen with TAK in public safety?

Paul Couston predicts that in the next decade, TAK will become the most popular public safety tool for common operating pictures over private players. He bases this on data from the military and believes TAK will be the least expensive option for services struggling with procurement and budget issues.

Hear it at 31:30

Transcript

Machine transcript of the published audio. Names may be misspelled and some sections are missing.

Ep 286 transcript

Building Simple, Scalable Tech for Firefighters and Warfighters with Paul Couston

Speakers: Kevin Sofen, Paul Couston

Source: Whisper medium.en machine transcription of the published Podbean audio (no original transcript found in Drive), lightly cleaned. Speakers were separated by voice clustering and then checked and assigned by hand at every speaker change. Gaps where the model returned no usable text are marked [inaudible m:ss].

[0:00] Kevin Sofen: Welcome back to the Smart Firefighting Podcast. Today's episode is with Paul Couston, co-founder and CEO of Ascent Integrated Tech. Paul shares his journey from building rugged solar generators for the Air Force to launching Ascent and his lessons learned along the way. We talk about why simplicity is the key to technology adoption in the fire service and the DoD, how smartwatches became a scalable accountability tool, where Ascent is at today with their solution WearTAK, and what leadership really means when pushing change. Tune in and enjoy insights and innovation, resilience, and the future of wearable technology for firefighters and warfighters. Officially live here with Paul Couston, probably like four years overdue at the Ascent headquarters, Paul, how you doing?

[0:49] Paul Couston: I'm doing really well, Kevin. I've waited for this moment. For the five years we've known each other, or the four that we've been working together, it's very much long overdue.

[0:59] Kevin Sofen: with Alex being on the pod, maybe he's one of the top guys next to Stefan, both at like five hit counts on the Smart Firefighting podcast. So it's, it's great to have you here, Paul.

[1:09] Paul Couston: Yeah. I'm more of like a one and done kind of guy.

[1:12] Kevin Sofen: Yeah. The big hitter coming in. And I mean, you've had a cool, interesting journey as it pertains to startup life in terms of this not being your first startup, as well as, you know, kind of the evolution of Ascent Integrated Tech over the years. Give me just a high level of some of your startup journey, entrepreneurial journey, to ultimately where we're at today with this integrated tech.

[1:33] Paul Couston: Yeah. So I started my first company when I was a University of Illinois engineering student, dropped out of school, did the TechStar Chicago program, and then moved out to the Bay Area. And we got our first defense contract before I could legally drink a beer building these rugged solar deployable generators for the U.S. Air Force. So kind of learned how to build and sell to government before I could really do much else. So this is kind of all I've ever known. And Ascent is no exception to that. I think the only difference with Ascent in comparison to that first business was Ascent is really focused on solving the problem well enough without needing to always raise venture capital. And that first business was very much addicted to venture capital.

[2:14] Kevin Sofen: Well, it's good to learn from the scabs and scars on the knees. Now Ascent's here and Ascent was formed in what, 2021?

[2:22] Paul Couston: Yeah, right around then.

[2:23] Kevin Sofen: And one of my favorite things when I walk into the Ascent headquarters is you see this evolution, the timeline of building prototype one to prototype 100 to where we're at today. Tell me a little bit about the Ascent journey from when you and Alex first started tinkering hardware to where the product and solutions at today.

[2:47] Paul Couston: Yeah, so Alex and I met at the University of Illinois through the iVenture program, which was a student accelerator program. And we were both mentoring students and they were like, hey, you know, you should meet this kind of scary looking Viking dude who has a big beard and makes mead and throws axes. So I was like, all right, I'll meet this guy. And lo and behold, he had also done a ton of work for the DOD, had also gotten some defense contracts early on. So we kind of jived on that. But it was also right in the middle of the pandemic. So there weren't a lot of people working. First responders were some of the only people still working. And it just so happened that the University of Illinois has the Illinois Fire Service Institute, which is world renowned, incredible place with some really great people. And people like Tim Walsh kind of showed us around and let us bunker up and go into some of the burns. And we fell in love with the fire industry. At the same time, too, we were also building technology for what was called the VIPER competition hosted through AFWORKS with the U.S. Air Force. So from the inception of the business, we recognized that there was kind of that dual use aspect of building for both municipal first responders as well as for the military. And they share very similar problems. Over the course of four to five years, we iterated dozens of times on the hardware, whether or not it was a helmet mounted system or an SCBA visor-mounted system, risk-worn wearables, phones in pockets, we had kind of tried it all. And when the solution didn't work, we kind of shot our baby in the face, picked up the pieces and moved forward. And I think that is the one testament to what we've built here at Ascent is that constant iteration cycle.

[4:34] Kevin Sofen: It seems like, yeah, you've responded a lot to what the market is telling you is acceptable, whether it's from a cost perspective, whether it's usability perspective. But one thing that you and I have both encountered as we've been finding ways to bring value to public safety and DoD war fighters is, and maybe it's a little bit more on the public safety side, but there is this ingrained tradition. And tradition is one of the best things about the fire service. And there are some of these amazing nuances that the brotherhood and the sisterhood that will never, hopefully never changes. But there are certain things that make it difficult with bringing in new technology. and there's that silly quote of the 200 years of tradition on the PFI progress, but I'm kind of curious in sort of like your take on technology adoption of the fire service in terms of what you've seen and then how you've adapted to find a way to bring value to the fire service, not just kind of create something that maybe sounds good on a social media post.

[5:30] Paul Couston: Yeah, so spend enough time in any fire station you're gonna hear firefighters hate two things, right? change and the way things are. And over the last five years of building with first responders, I've kind of recognized like actually firefighters are pretty good at change. I mean, anytime a scene's involving, they have to change all the time. Split like last minute decisions going on offensive versus defensive, there's constant change in the fire service. And if you kind of take a broader look. Some of the change specifically around technology has dramatically decreased line of duty deaths, introduction of PPE, the introduction of radios as standards. I mean, these are massive wins for the fire service. So I like to kind of challenge that prospect of firefighters don't like change. I think they're very much comfortable with change, But I do think it's on the technology and the technology providers to understand how to implement that change, and also to listen past the initial pain points. I guess to dive into an example of that, as you know, Ascent was part of the first competition. It was hosted through Indiana University, NIST and PSCR, and it was all around indoor location tracking of firefighters and first responders. In that particular competition, there were 65 companies that applied. It was an 18-month competition, millions of dollars of funding, and it was all around precise XYZ, which for the five years I've been in the industry has kind of been portrayed as the holy grail of problems to solve. And over the course of the competition, Ascent made it to the finals and beat out all the rest of the competition to win on indoor location accuracy. And from a science perspective, the system was brilliant. I mean, and granted, I'm biased, but it incorporated every aspect of localization technology. GNSS accelerometers, magnetometers, IMUs, triangulation of devices, as well as visual-based systems. So it kind of turn the firefighter into like a Roomba or a Tesla. They would be able to understand where the device was relative to its environment. And that got us the sub one meter accuracy that the competition was hoping to accomplish. And we got all excited about it. We actually put a hundred of these units out into the field. And over the course of a year, all 100 units came back. And as we would interview the firefighters trying to understand why they came back, we found out that even though the science was there, the operational use case was not. An actual structure fire is much different than a Class A burn in terms of the oil and the particulate. Also, the system required calibration, which meant that the firefighter had to push a button in order for the system to start and be able to provide that accuracy. And Last but not least, it was a big bulky system that was prone to overheating. So we found out very early on in the inception of the business that if the system is not simple, you will become the change that firefighters resist. If you don't build it with the firefighter in mind, if the firefighter isn't involved in the change, then you become that change that the fire service hates. So yeah, that's been the last five years.

[9:13] Kevin Sofen: as I've worked alongside you throughout those five years and also Alex, I hear a lot about that term operational relevance and to me and the fire service and people ask me about technology and the fire service I think the most important thing is it's like it has to be simple. Especially if it's something that doesn't necessarily have an SOP around it yet, that's a big obstacle in terms of does not NFPA standard, not gonna use it. We're seeing some early adopters and again we're slowly moving to early majority But when you say operational relevance and if a solution must be simple, what do you mean by that?

[9:49] Paul Couston: If you go about trying to fundamentally change the firefight, you will fail. You cannot expect a firefighter to stray significantly. from their training and the way that tradition that we just talked about. So if a solution is going to be introduced, it needs to be introduced in a way that works with the operations of the fire department. So when I say it doesn't change anything, us introducing an additional device that was hanging off the SCBA require the firefighter to charge another device that's hanging off of another piece of equipment that they also have to charge. We also changed the ritual, which was in addition to all the other things I need to do before I enter structure fire, I need to start the system. I need to push a button and wait for it to calibrate. That change ultimately was the reason why that indoor location system didn't scale. Now, hindsight, there's always ways to counteract that change and find a way to kind of integrate into the way that firefighters do their operations. But one of the easiest ways to do that is just understand what is the current state. And right now, the current state is, if you walk into a firehouse, half of the firefighters are already wearing a wearable on their wrist. And when we were collecting the 100 units that didn't work out for the fire departments, I couldn't help but recognize that everybody had a phone in their pocket and half of them had a smartwatch on their wrist. That was technology that they, as individuals, were already willing to adopt. And thus, building on top of that didn't fundamentally change how a firefighter prepares for the job and how they show up.

[11:43] Kevin Sofen: So with these lessons from the failures, I hate to call it the failure, but from the learnings from those 100 units returned and really studying this next technological wave of smartwatches on risk, I mean, I see it, I have boomer parents and parents-in-law that are wearing smartwatches and are up to date with the recent Apple and Samsung watches. And it just seems like there's this kind of technology curve of ease of use, the UI, UX, the cost, but how kind of that aha moment to now this watch that's on your wrist, how has that now shaped a sense technology development roadmap to really trying to find this product market fit that I see here today on your wrist?

[12:26] Paul Couston: To your point about the simplicity that, you know, your parents are wearing it, that's even seen now in the firehouse too, right? Because of the simplicity of a device that's just put on for the day and taken off, it follows the ritual that other devices that the firefighters already used to wearing, like a radio, for example, already follows that same ritual. We recognize pretty early on with the kind of evolution of the technology to a smartwatch, and that the smartwatch had its own set of constraints that we would have to work around. But I think the biggest value proposition that we gained moving over to the smartwatch is the simplicity. And with that simplicity, it allowed us to ship watches, I mean, not just here in the U.S., but around the world. And now we have over 50 agencies that are using watches in day-to-day operations for events or parades or concerts. And it's also now no longer agnostic, I guess, it's no longer just focused in on a structure fire, which only accounts for 2% of calls for most fire departments. Now it's for day-to-day operations, medical calls, unfortunately, mass casualty events, situations in which first responders are getting more and more mileage out of the technology that they're already wearing. So the key aspect of that smartwatch is the simplicity. And with that simplicity, it's allowed us to offer new tools to both the responder as well as the incident commander and do it in a way that can fit into to the procurement and the budget processes of that fire department.

[14:13] Kevin Sofen: So you mentioned these, it's new tools and Richard Gassaway, who's a very well-respected fire service leader who talks a lot about situational awareness matters. He told me this one story about how he approached this one vendor at a show and their tool, this tool gives you situational awareness. And he was like, okay, what do you mean it has to give you? And they kept just saying all the features and the features just give you situational awareness. And his key message that he told me that I never forget is that these tools don't give you situational awareness. They give you insights or data that help you develop situational awareness. And you mentioned that WearTAK offers some of these different features that for the operator, for the incident commander around health alerting, around location tracking. So tell me more about sort of how WearTAK sort of doesn't give you situational awareness, how it helps operators, incident commanders develop situational awareness.

[15:06] Paul Couston: Yeah, so I think the most important feature of a smartwatch on the wrist is, like I said, the simplicity, but also most importantly for public safety is that it's a passive accountability tool. It doesn't require the operator to do anything in order to have that awareness. It also doesn't require the commander to do anything more than turn on the screen to see where are my people and how are they doing. Now, obviously, we've built more than just that capability, but that was the most important capability to build first, was the simplicity of just being able to turn on a device and have it work and have it work reliably and robust and just work for operations. Now, with that feature set also comes all these additional tools. For example, directly on the watch interface themselves, the first responder can call for an alert or a Mayday or acquire assistance. They can drop points that indicates, hey, I've found a downed civilian here or for a search and rescue operation, I've searched this building and it's clear. So I'm going to drop a green point indicating that this building is green or a red point indicating that I found a patient here that's in pretty bad shape. That is a way to take the where are my people aspect and give that wearer an additional tool set. In addition, because it's a device worn on the wrist, there's also the ability to monitor the physiological state of the operator. So heart rate, skin temperature, O2 levels, exertion and exhaustion levels, that can all be determined from the wearable. That's not a foreign concept to a lot of people that already wear smartwatches. They know that their Apple Watch can detect when they're out for a walk, and it'll even prompt them saying, hey, we noticed you're out for a walk, would you like to record it? What they're actually asking is, do we have consent to drain your battery to get you a better assessment of how your walk went? These features exist on Samsung smartwatches or really any smartwatch, but they haven't been fine-tuned to the needs of the first responder, and that's what Wear Attack really does. it turns an existing Samsung smartwatch into a tactical tool for public safety that doesn't require the operator to do anything with the watch and doesn't require the commander to do anything, but gives them new tools that if they so choose to leverage the tool, they have more capabilities. But if they choose not to embrace change and just to embrace how technology evolves over time, it would allow them to get a lot more out of a device that's available today, that you can go to Best Buy to buy a smartwatch. The only difference is now you need a layer of software over it that makes that watch useful for public safety.

[18:14] Kevin Sofen: So I'm gonna double click a little bit into the physiological and health alerting part. It does seem, I know you had a presentation back in June at the NFPA conference, and part of that is, again, looking at the statistics, looking at where are line of duty deaths and injuries happening. And there's a staggering amount that has to do with cardio, cardiovascular issues. And how does this sort of smartwatch and WearTAK integrate to operator safety? And ultimately, how is it providing that insight to the incident commander to know that, hey, something is wrong. This person needs to go into rehab. Like, tell me more about that.

[18:52] Paul Couston: Yeah, so the NFPA published a report last year that close to half of all the line of duty deaths were cardiac related. I want to preference that the fire service has done a fantastic job implementing new technologies that has reduced line of duty deaths. I mean, the data is clear on that. What I will be critical of is that I feel like the fire service moves very slowly in the right direction. Smart watches have the capability today to reduce that statistic. However, I think firefighters hate change and also the way things should be. They know that they should be a little bit safer. They know that they should maybe be in a little bit better shape, but there is some aversion to the concept of wearing a device that is constantly showing me my resting heart rate. and that I know that's maybe a little elevated than it should be. There are signs and especially the fire service who were mostly trained as EMTs as well. understand how important those vitals are to understanding the state of the patient. So we, as a private company, are trying to enable the fire service to embrace that change. NFPA and other organizations can always help the fire service by making those standards. But at the end of the day, the fire service will want to have the change happen before that adoption really occurs. There are some incredible departments that we're working hand-in-hand with. I'll give a couple of shout-outs to them. Milwaukee, Washington DC, and Indy, some of the earliest. But now we even have some other metros like in Texas, like we have Houston, Austin, some Southern California fire departments. OTAK in Colorado is leading the charge. Even in Florida, Miami Beach, Sarasota. I mean, these are really progressive departments that are really tech-savvy and they're pushing forward. But when you look at the vast majority of the service, they're gonna wait until there is proof. They may not be the early adopters. So my hope is that the change can happen more rapidly because every single time that I do see a line of duty death that's related to cardiac issues, I do believe that's a preventable death. And we have the technology today to be able to detect it and ensure that doesn't happen in the future. but it's ultimately up to the fire service on how quickly they want to adopt that change.

[21:28] Kevin Sofen: And so we're kind of looking now at this early adopter and I think we're hoping to continue to see this technology move to the early majority and the vast majority. Earlier you mentioned that you walked into the fire departments and majority of them had phones in their pockets and some had smartwatches, but even as great as everything we've talked about with how this technology has come, there's always this resistance to change about, I don't wanna wear a smartwatch or I already have a phone. How have you approached this kind of dynamic of I don't want to wear the watch or, Hey, I've already got a phone in my pocket. Why do I need anything else?

[22:00] Paul Couston: Yeah. So anyone who uses two phones for work knows how much that sucks. It just sucks having two devices. There's obviously some pros of the phone. For example, a phone can give the squad lead a map and that map can be really beneficial. So we don't look at it exclusively as like it is phone versing watch, but what we have seen firsthand as a company that's put both phones and watches out there is that there is a value proposition. There is something useful about having a device that is wrapped around my wrist that I just forget about for the day. Whereas phones and pockets can be forgotten, phones and pockets also don't have the same level of accountability, that if a captain or a lieutenant is walking around the fire station and sees that a firefighter isn't wearing a watch, that there can be accountability built into that. I think most importantly, and I think what most of our users have recognized is that beyond the watch just being less expensive than the phone plan, it is much more of a tactical tool. Now, for structured firefighting, I don't imagine them ever interacting with the watch while they got full PPE on and gloves and it's underneath their bunker gear. But because it's on the wrist, we can also do so much more than the phone would ever be capable of. So in that example of structured firefighting, if that firefighter were to fall through the floor and then be passive, you know, their pass would go off, but there is no system that is alerting command or the RIT team, hey, this firefighter needs help because we have similar capabilities that the phone does and more. That watch can detect that there is that fall through the floor. It can detect that there's passivity and a pretty stark change in the physiological state of the operator. And while we won't necessarily call a mayday, we'll ping the incident commander and say, hey, we noticed something off with engine 27 firefighter two. it may be worthwhile to check in on that individual and see how they're doing. And if we could accelerate the response and then show the RIT team, maybe not precisely sub one meter accurate of where they are in the building, but more importantly show them, hey, they're in this corner of the building, this general elevation above command, it helps focus the RIT team's efforts to get closer to that pass alarm. And that is only able to happen when there is a passive accountability tool that is worn on the wrist of the operator.

[24:43] Kevin Sofen: And in the fire service, we've seen technology integrated at different speeds. I mean, there was at times where there was pagers and that was deemed overwhelming. And then it's moved towards, again, all these different nuances, features on the firefighting operations from the infrared camera to radios, to STBAs where AEDs on fire trucks, like stuff that 10 years before it, people would have called you crazy if everyone was gonna have it. But now it's like, we couldn't imagine not having it. But one of the challenges here is the leadership from the top embracing that this is a need, but then also turning that into upcoming NFPA related standards, which again, that whole process takes a long time. But I think we're kind of on the cusp here when, especially when I look at like drones, where drones were very early, but now it's almost like they're not even nice to have, they're must haves. And VR in a certain way for training has followed a similar trajectory where VR systems are not that expensive and you can use them in the firehouse and get sets and reps and it's become more commonplace. But I'm curious in your thoughts from how leadership in standard conversation is going, what would you say to some of these potential firefighter leaders that are maybe on the cusp here or whether they're an early adopter kind of just curious like what's the role that leadership is going to play here that really moving this forward to bringing the most value possible to the fire service?

[26:08] Paul Couston: Sure, I think leadership in general for the fire service has always as a majority pushed toward better safety and for the wellness of their team and I want to put the caveat that almost all of our early adopters and users of this are just exceptional leaders but you're always going to get near exceptions. And I have seen firsthand about what poor leadership can look like in the fire service. There's a handful of departments that will tell me, man, I can't get my guys to wear this. I can't get my firefighters to wear a tool that's meant to better protect them or save their lives. And I understand that there's always going to be hesitancy and resistance to change. But in our military markets, we never hear that. There is never this, oh I cannot get my team to adopt something that's meant to protect them. It's the same thing even in the law enforcement markets as well. It's a difficult challenge for a lot of fire departments to solve and I don't think there's really much that we as a technology provider can do to solve that policy and procedure that's set and established by the fire department, but, you know, I've heard the stories of fire departments pushing for the past system, pushing for radios, pushing to replace the coats with bunker gear. And all of those stories, including now VR and drones and all the examples that you just referenced, all of them will be met with resistance change. It is the burden of leadership, it is the yolk of leadership that you need to push past that resistance, and you might not be very popular in the department for pushing for a system that will save a life. But if you can push for a system that improves the overall safety of your team, then that in itself is the fulfillment of leadership too.

[28:21] Kevin Sofen: It takes courage and our friend AJ Johansson from Corona Fire Department has a great quote when speaking about TAK. It's don't be afraid to suck at something new. And frankly, all of us, I mean, when you try something new and especially if it's something that you've never done before that has complex, like you're gonna suck at it for a little bit. And I mean, when you hear that quote, and again, you wanna kind of encourage to early adopters and the champions to don't be afraid to start something new, you know, how's that quote resonate with you?

[28:53] Paul Couston: Yeah, I mean, I can tell you firsthand experience starting two companies, I'm still learning. I still make mistakes on the daily. I've made multiple mistakes even with the set today. All right, easy, you're exactly right though, right? I mean, we all make mistakes every single day. It's just part of something new, right? And it's like you mentioned, the repetition, right? reps and repetition that really does help you become more comfortable and get better at that. But our base software that we push to, for example, is called TAK. He brought up AJ. He's a big advocate for TAK. And some of the things that he's already been doing for the community, even in his local department with Corona, has been incredible. But even AJ, probably one of the biggest tacticians that's out there, he probably sucked at TAK to. In the very early days it was new. A lot of the departments that we show TAK to, yeah, they get a little overwhelmed at first with how robust of a tool it is and how many different features it has and what it can do for public safety. But that doesn't necessarily give, I suppose, an excuse to not have accountability tools and TAK is already paid for. Every 15th of April, we all pay for TAK. It's a government off the shelf software because even our US Air Force and our government recognizes the value of a common operating picture for public safety, which is why the taxpayers support it's a difficult system to work with initially. But you spend enough time with it, and all of a sudden you recognize that it's really not that difficult to understand.

[30:35] Kevin Sofen: And to kind of go into TAK a little bit more, and again, what is TAK? I mean, there's the CivTAK community, and there's the CivTAK event in early November. Ken Rabin and Corey Foy are leading a lot of that initiative, and it's looking at the non-DOD applications for TAK, for fire, law, EMS, National Guard, all these other nuances. But there's part of that sort of thinking about, well, what can we learn from DOD and apply it to public safety? From your experience working with warfighters, warfighter operators, public safety operators, what are some of those lessons that we can take from the DOD and apply to the fire service? And of course, very different structure, and you mentioned the top-down dynamic, but generally, is there anything that you think that fire service can learn from DoD in your experience, and especially kind of how TAK plays a role in that?

[31:30] Paul Couston: Yeah, I think the biggest lesson to take away is exactly what happened to the U.S. DoD about 15, 20 years ago. Ralph Kohler, kind of the godfather of TAK, was kind of posed with a decision, which was, do we let the private industry build a common operating picture for us, or do we take ownership of building our own? I think he made the right decision which was, hey, we recognize that it's important to own the ecosystem, the common operating picture, and allow for the private industry to do what it does best, which is build on top of that. The best analogy to think about is building the App Store, so that way all the private companies can build apps, instead of feeling like you have to build both the App Store and all the apps that are on the store. So, what the TAK community has allowed that common operating picture to be is a bunch of operators, like Ascent, going in and building a very specific and custom tool for the greater ecosystem. But a lot of public safety agencies, when they're first evaluating TAK, are blown away with the fact that they can change their map tiles, migrate over their fire hydrant data, in traffic cam feeds or drone feeds, use what's called a blood hounding tool that will route you to a certain point that's dropped on the map. All of these are core and native features that either TAK and the TAK Product Center and the TAK community prioritized or individual contributors just built and released for the betterment of the service. I think if you look at some of the scar tissue that exists right now with the fire service around old legacy CAD systems, you can see some of the downfalls on relying on a private company to build the software for public safety. I think, and granted, I am a betting man on this, so I'll make my statement. I think in the next decade, TAK will become the most popular public safety tool for common operating pictures over some of the private players. And I only feel that way because I have the data set that I've seen with the military that's implying that TAK is doing exactly that right now for our Department of Defense. So I don't see why it wouldn't also then do that for public safety. At least for the reason that TAK is going to be the least expensive option for an entire service that is constantly struggling with procurement and budget issues.

[34:06] Kevin Sofen: I was going to ask you, what do you think about this is going to happen in the next decade? But I would agree. So I mean, to kind of close us out here, I'd love to hear what are you most excited about from where we're at now and to kind of where Ascent is and the fire service is at. And I'd also love to know if you have any like final favorite quote or anything that you live by that you can share us with. The first excited quote.

[34:28] Paul Couston: Sure. I think what I'm most excited about with public safety and service members and just like this whole industry that I'll just call public safety, is that there's really incredible people that want to see the service and their communities be safer. That is something that when I look at that flag, that's what I remember. I remember there are people that are willing to put their lives on the line for their communities, for their families, for their country. That is something that I think is so damn American that I'm proud of it, and I want to continue supporting that initiative, purely because it is probably one of the most selfless ways to give back to everyone who's put in the time, and the effort, and the sacrifice to get us to where we're at today. So just the privilege of being able to build for that community has been incredible. know, even going out to the smart firefighting shindigs and events, like you kind of get to see these people for who they are. And they're all good people deep down inside. So as a technologist who's always building new technology and thinking about the way that things should be, it does make me feel happy, I guess, fulfilled that the people that we're building for are fundamentally selfless people. And that does help move things forward. I think we're at a really interesting time. It doesn't matter how cool I think Ascent is. If the timing of what we're trying to do didn't line up, it wouldn't matter. But I think we're at a really interesting inflection point where public safety is starting to think about accountability tools, about improving safety, counteracting the number one killer of firefighters for line of duty deaths. To me, I think that puts Ascent in a really interesting perspective, that if Alex and I continue to steer the ship in the right direction and just constantly be receptive to what the service is telling us, I think ascent will be successful and I think with that outcome public safety will be just a little bit safer.

[36:35] Kevin Sofen: Well said and couldn't agree more and to the final question of I always ask everyone you know is there any sort of words or wisdom or quote whether it's in general life for public safety I know you're a big Marcus Aurelius guy it doesn't have to be that but anything you can any mic drop you can leave it

[36:52] Paul Couston: yeah so actually I'll give this one back to you Kevin, which is maybe two, three years ago. You gave me a challenge coin. It was back to Marcus Aurelius. It was written in Latin. Do you mind sharing what that coin was?

[37:03] Kevin Sofen: I have it with me now. I carry it every day. If I, if I were to get a tattoo, it'd be this, but it's memento mori on one side and has a skull, which resembles death, a tulip, which resembles life and a time clock, which resembles time. And on the back it says, you could leave life right now. And it's not necessarily looking at death as something to be afraid of, but looking at death to give us a sense of purpose while we're alive. I mean, the one thing that at least one thing we both have in common is that we're both going to die. And it's knowing that, hey, what are we going to do with our time here today? I became a dad a couple months ago. You're about to become a dad. What can we continue to do to be as best stewards for ourselves, our family, and the community? So my mom would kill me if I got a tattoo, which is why I carry this in my pocket. But if I did, it would be this. So yeah, memento mori.

[37:50] Paul Couston: And I think just as death is certain, the prospect that you and I both are bringing in life into this world is incredible, right? And I do wonder at times like when my daughter's old enough to the point that she's starting to understand like, oh, what does my dad do, right? And I imagine one day that we're like at, you know, Wicker Park Fest or some sort of festival and, you know, maybe she's sitting up on my shoulders and then I see maybe one of those patrol officers or an EMS wearing a smartwatch. And I can have that quiet satisfaction knowing that what Ascent has been doing has pushed for that responder, who likely has a family and kids as well, to be a little bit more safer on that job. And maybe my daughter calls out, it's like, oh, look, he's wearing a smartwatch. Isn't that what you do, Dad? Maybe that moment happens, maybe it doesn't, but what's far more important to me is that quiet satisfaction to know that what we're doing here has purpose and I could be removed from this world at any moment, but the thing that we've built here at Ascent will live far beyond and it'll actually make a difference for the people that are serving their communities.

[39:06] Kevin Sofen: Well said Paul. Well this was long overdue and I look forward to the next one, I don't think this is a one and done.

[39:11] Paul Couston: Definitely not.

[39:12] Kevin Sofen: So thanks Paul for already doing and until next time. Thanks for joining another episode of the Smart Firefighting Podcast. We hope you learned something today and if so, please consider leaving us a review or a comment so we can keep creating the best content for you. Have a great day and thanks for all that you do for public safety.