Smart Firefighting Podcast

Episode 285: TAK for First Responders with Brian Alligood from Draper Labs

Published

Guests: Brian Alligood

Topics: TAK & Mapping

Episode notes

Why does the TAK ecosystem work?

Hello Smart Firefighting Community!

Welcome to another episode of covering real world innovations via interviews with fire service and technology industry experts that empower YOU to develop your very own Smart Firefighting strategy!

In this episode:

How can partnerships close the tech adoption gap

How Draper Labs builds tools for firefighters, EMS, and law enforcement

What real collaboration actually looks like

Hear from Brian Alligood from Draper Labs .

Brian shares how his team is building and adapting TAK tools to support first responders, especially those in smaller or under-resourced departments. He brings experience from years of work in space and deep-sea navigation systems, now applied to the practical needs of people on the ground.

The episode highlights what it takes to move technology from federal labs to local agencies and why Draper invests in listening to end users from the start. It’s a grounded conversation about tech, community, and the realities of making useful tools for public safety.

So take a listen to hear what he has to share!

Head to www.smartfirefighting.com to discover how SFF accelerates innovation for emergency responders, to find out when our next event is, or review our curated resources!

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Chapters

  1. 0:00 Intro from CivTAK 2024
  2. 0:50 Live at CivTAK with Brian Alligood
  3. 1:15 What the first CivTAK is about
  4. 3:06 Who Draper is: from MIT to ATAK and WebTAK
  5. 5:07 From Apollo 11 to deep sea navigation
  6. 6:41 What's on the Draper roadmap
  7. 8:33 Biggest opportunities and obstacles for civilian TAK
  8. 12:16 Getting TAK to small and medium departments
  9. 13:57 The reason you come back
  10. 15:24 Wrap

Questions answered in this episode

What is CivTAK and how is it different from other TAK events?

Brian Alligood says CivTAK is similar to the annual TAK off-site that the DOD holds, but it is very much focused on the first responder community. Firefighters and first responder organizations from across the country, and even some foreign police, come together to share ideas and voice their challenges.

Hear it at 1:24

What is Draper Labs and when did it start?

Brian Alligood explains that Draper is a nonprofit lab with four major focus areas: biotechnology, electronic systems, space, and strategic systems. It started in MIT in the 1930s and was spun off as an independent nonprofit in the 1970s. The headquarters is in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Hear it at 3:11

How long has Draper been working in the TAK space?

Brian Alligood says Draper has been working in the TAK space for over a decade, starting when ATAK was a nascent idea. Draper was involved with ATAK and WinTAK plugins and built the WebTAK platform.

Hear it at 3:11

What does Brian Alligood see as the biggest challenge for first responders adopting TAK?

Funding is the biggest challenge. Brian Alligood says small departments do not have the budget that large federal government has, but their mission is no less important. The question is how to get technologies to the folks who really need them but perhaps do not have the budget to support them from day one.

Hear it at 9:00

What advice does Brian Alligood give to first responders who want to learn about TAK?

He says the camaraderie within the TAK space extends externally. If you are interested, call companies like Draper or talk to folks in the next state or jurisdiction over who might be using it. The community is very open and people will quickly share everything they know.

Hear it at 13:12

Transcript

Machine transcript of the published audio. Names may be misspelled and some sections are missing.

Ep 285 transcript

TAK for First Responders with Brian Alligood from Draper Labs

Speakers: Brian Alligood, Kevin Sofen

Source: Whisper medium.en machine transcription of the published Podbean audio (no original transcript found in Drive), lightly cleaned. Speakers were separated by voice clustering and then checked and assigned by hand at every speaker change. Gaps where the model returned no usable text are marked [inaudible m:ss].

[0:00] Kevin Sofen: Welcome to part three of our CivTAK 2025 mini-series, recorded on the floor from CivTAK 2024. Today, we're sitting down with Brian Alligood from Draper Labs to explore the world of cutting-edge technology designed to make life easier and safer for first responders within the TAK ecosystem. We'll learn how Draper's deep engineering roots from the moon landing to deep sea exploration are shaping the way we think about common operating platforms for fire, law, and EMS. Brian's gonna break down why partnerships are collaboration and essential for making sure these tools get into the right hands. And for anyone who believes in the power of practical innovation within the TAK ecosystem, this episode is for you. Sitting here live at CivTAK, alongside Brian Alligood with Draper Labs. Brian, what's going on?

[0:56] Brian Alligood: Just having a good time here. It's a great venue, really turned out nice. So, enjoying the time, enjoying the opportunity to talk with some of our partners here, some of the folks that we've worked with in the past, some of our end users. So, you know, definitely here to get the message out, but also just having a good time with everybody.

[1:15] Kevin Sofen: For people not at CivTAK, like kind of painting a picture, what's happened here? To my understanding, this is the first CivTAK event. What has been happening?

[1:24] Brian Alligood: Yeah, so I mean, I would liken it, you know, if people are familiar with the TAK ecosystem, the TAK space. I mean it's kind of similar to the annual TAK off-site that the DOD holds. I think this one though is different in that it's very much focused on the first responder community. So a lot of firefighters here, different first responder organizations, and not just locally but from across the country. We even have some foreign police presence here as well. And I think it's really one of those venues where people are coming together and sharing ideas, getting up, giving briefs on what they're working on, also listening to those first responders and their problems, letting those guys take the stage and really voice what they're working on, what their challenges are, what they can use help on. So I think it's a pretty great venue. A lot of people turned out, a lot more than I think most people expected, to include myself.

[2:21] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, and I think the content's been great, but really the value is in that back room over there, just kind of being able to rub elbows of some of these different people you meet online that are really driving this forward. I've kind of fell into the tech community by accident almost. And part of it was actually shout out to AJ where I hosted the podcast at AJ and it was like three times my normal listeners. And I was like, hmm, like maybe there's something here about tech. And so I've just been diving into all things tech and learning more about it. And I've heard just Draper this, Draper that. And again, they're saying like, maybe not from a marketing message, not from a billboard or an ad, but just Draper, sort of this underlying fabric of kind of involved, and I continue to be interested and fascinated about the model. Give us a high level of who, what, when, where, why, how, do all the above Draper?

[3:11] Brian Alligood: Yeah, so, I mean, when you're talking about Draper as a larger organization, you know, I'll kind of talk about Draper as Draper as a whole first, and then kind of talk about the TAK work and where we're going there. But, you know, Draper is a much larger lab than what we just do, than what my group does. You know, we've got four major focus areas being biotechnology, electronic systems, space, and then strategic systems as well. We are, our headquarters is based up in Cambridge, Massachusetts, right down the street from MIT, and that's where we started. We started in MIT in the 1930s, so a long time ago. In the 70s, we were spun off as an independent nonprofit, So we're still there, still have our connections to the university, but we are an independent entity. And we have been so for about 30 years, or sorry, about 50 years now. We started in ATAK when it was kind of more or less a nascent idea coming together with AFRL and those folks, some of our partners at MITRE and building out that framework. And really, I think what Draper brought to that conversation was getting embedded with those end users and saying, we're gonna build something cool, but we need to make it exactly how you want it. And so Draper was very forward leaning and getting that user feedback to build that out. We've been working in the TAK space for over a decade now, everything from, you know, being involved with ATAK and WinTAK plugins. We built the WebTAK platform that's growing in popularity and hopefully we'll continue to move forward and do some really great stuff and continue to incorporate more of that cutting edge technology into our ATAK and other platforms as well. And being part of that larger organization that Draper is, it really allows us to reach back into just a talent pool that's world-class.

[5:07] Kevin Sofen: Before we go a mile deep into all things TAK, you'd mentioned earlier some of the earlier work that Draper's done, even stemming all the way back from the lunar landing at the Apollo 11. Anything else you can share on that?

[5:19] Brian Alligood: Oh, yeah, I mean, space, I mean, it's kind of funny. If you look at space and you look at deep sea, there's a lot of similarities where Draper has played in there. And I think a lot of that is towards their guidance, navigation, and control. You know, if you need to guide something, if you need to control something, an accuracy is kind of a no-fail mission, if you will. Draper can really do it. So yeah, as you said, we had built the foundations of the navigation system that landed on the moon. We built part of the navigation systems in the first space shuttle. We have systems in orbit right now. Our space business is continuously just pushing the edge and doing some incredible stuff. And we translate a lot of that to groups doing deep sea work. So some of the first deep sea submersibles, unmanned underwater systems that can navigate without a human in the loop. So I think we have a pretty deep background in a lot of those areas. And the list is a mile long of the different stuff that's come out of that lab. I mean, from that all the way to the really cool things like a new pediatric heart valve that is revolutionary. I mean, to be able to work at a company like that with all those different talents and accolades, it's pretty cool.

[6:41] Kevin Sofen: Well, it's impressive. I was making a joke really. Drapers are this like kind of like behind the scenes ninjas that are just kind of doing awesome stuff that's building very valuable tools, software widgets, components are driving value. And of course, TAK and I was fortunate to be able to have Ralph Kohler here earlier, one of the OGs and the originators of all things TAK. And he was talking about ultimately TAK was created to be this ecosystem to empower companies, nonprofits, groups to keep building on the TAK ecosystem. and kind of looking at where you're at now and in the next, you know, six, 12, 24, 60 months, you know, what stuff that's on the Draper roadmap of anything that you can't share publicly about stuff that you're tracking or even other stuff that you're excited about?

[7:28] Brian Alligood: Yeah, sure. So, I mean, I think a lot of the, you know, this isn't anything that would probably surprise most folks out there, but things like generative AI, you know, some of these things that have been groundbreaking that perhaps were not foreseen, you know, look at something like a chat GPT, there was a lot of company roadmaps that changed drastically after that technology started kind of coming to the masses. And so we certainly have our roadmap looking ahead on how users interact with TAK, what kind of algorithms, novel algorithms we can bring to perhaps inform a human on what they might be missing, that valuable information and diverse ways that we can do that, but also being flexible and accepting that there are going to be unforeseen breakthroughs, right? So, you know, move forward with the great ideas and a kind of a following that north star, but also understanding that sky's the limit, right? Who knows what's coming around the bend tomorrow. So I think that just makes it that much more exciting to work in that industry.

[8:33] Kevin Sofen: And when you see some of these other innovators and entrepreneurs and thought leaders, whatever you call it here, and again, there's this kind of infectious energy in a good way about how TAK is being a piece of the puzzle to help be an interoperable common operating picture across fire, law, EMS, especially the CivTAK side. What do you see as both some of the biggest opportunities for TAK within the civilian side, and then what do you see as the biggest obstacles preventing CivTAK from being widely adopted?

[9:00] Brian Alligood: Yeah, sure. So I mean, geez, the benefits are, or how do you, how do you count all of those? Right? I mean, the goodness of that situational awareness, those decision-making aids, you know, I always say we make this incredible technology that goes down range and I've been blessed to be able to see it working down range and its true capabilities. And that's awesome. But if my kid is hurt, if my house is on fire, If something happens and I call 911, I want those guys to have that same technology, right? I want them to be able to find me and manage their resources in such a way that they can help me or help anybody else with their time of need. I mean, there's emergency. People pick up the phone here and call 911 and it's lost on them just how much goes into that response, how much those people pour themselves into that job and their lives into that job. And so the benefit. that I think they can get out of something like the TAK ecosystem are huge. And I hope too that the way that the environment is shaped in such a way in terms of the cost of say using ATAK or using any of the TAK platforms lowers that barrier to entry for a lot of these local departments. And I think I would segue that into the biggest challenges that I see of some of these folks adopting these capabilities and continuing to build is that funding. A lot of these small departments, they don't have the budget that large federal government has, but their mission is no less important. The lives that they protect and they save is no less than anybody else. So how do we as a community, and the TAK community really is just that. There's not a lot of market areas where you bring in the top competitors and they're all shaking hands and how have you been? And then, you know, they work well together. So how can we, as developer communities, as people that are building out these new technologies, how do we do so in a way that we can get them to the folks that really need them, but perhaps don't have the budget to support them from day one? I see that as always being a challenge. We've been lucky in working with AJ and some of the other first responders out there. They're leveraging some of our technologies now, which is fantastic. And I think it was some of those were incredible stories, those stories that you wanna hear more of where we did the work for some federal government entity, but there was a solid dual use for it, right? First responders could use that as well. And we were able to link up these smaller offices with those larger agencies that were funding us and really make a case and say, hey, you can share this with these folks. It costs you nothing more. And they'll be able to adopt it because we're making that tax dollar go a little bit further. And so we've really kind of been able to tie that, those ends together, if you will, to create dual use technologies, as we might call it, on a positive side.

[12:16] Kevin Sofen: I mean, to what you said earlier, I am impressed about the camaraderie amongst all the different competitors here and that there is definitely kind of a unique energy and support amongst the TAK community. And frankly, I think that's very unique. But then also, I guess the challenge that I think TAK community is facing, and just TAK in general, is because there's no salesforce. There's no TAK group. There's companies that are kind of building on and selling stuff on TAK. And how TAK was developed and used for the military is slightly different than how the civilian market's using it. But how do we continue to get TAK as something that is known and used as a tool for those that aren't here and that are kind of out there. What are your thoughts in terms of from small and medium departments, whether you're fire, law, EMS, or a different type of state and local agencies that have the ability to download and start using TAK in some capacity? Any thoughts or ideas on that?

[13:12] Brian Alligood: Yeah, I suppose quite simply on some of that stuff, with folks trying to get involved and get exposure to something that they're not familiar with, you know, that camaraderie within this space extends externally, right? I mean, it's not just if you're part of the club, then great. It's, if you're interested, call Draper, call anybody, call, talk to those folks, you know, in the next state over or the next jurisdiction over who might be using it and say, how do I get involved? How do I learn more about this? You'll find that the community is very open. people very quickly share everything they know about it, because they believe in it, right? They believe in the broader mission and they believe in kind of the approach from a community side.

[13:57] Kevin Sofen: Yeah. Well, this is sort of a final wild card of sorts, but I'm interested, is there any sort of quote or life lesson or something that either you live by, you kind of embody within the work that you do in Draper or something within the tech community that is something that you often come back to?

[14:12] Brian Alligood: Yeah, I think it would be, you know, the reason you come back. And so I'll explain, you know, regardless of what you do, whether you're in the technology sector, whether you're a government employee, whether you're a first responder, you're going to have bad days. Everybody has bad days at work, right? And when you're driving home and you're stressed out, maybe you're sitting in traffic and the day's just getting worse. You gotta have something that you get back up for the next morning and drive back in and get back to work. And I think that really is that deeper meaning, that deeper cause. What is it that you're doing that's larger than you? I think where I'm at with Draper, where our team is at with Draper, we get to be part of that. And I think I try to remind our folks of that regularly is you're part of something bigger. That's why you come back and do this after hard days. So my advice to anybody else out there, and perhaps it's just a life advice, but do something that even on those bad days, it's still a reason for you to get back up tomorrow and go back and do it again.

[15:24] Kevin Sofen: Brian, well said. Well, I have a feeling that we're gonna be back here sometime soon. So I really admire and appreciate the work that you and Draper are doing. So keep up the good work and look forward to crossing the paths again sometime soon.

[15:35] Brian Alligood: Fantastic, looking forward to it.

[15:36] Kevin Sofen: Thanks, Brian. Thanks for listening today. Make sure to join us at CivTAK 2025, November four through six in Washington, D.C. CivTAK is where public safety professionals and industry leaders come together to collaborate, innovate, and advance TAK integration. This is your ecosystem for real-world solutions and shared mission success. See the website and show notes, and we hope to see you there. TAK is the way.