Episode 272: Creating Safer and More Inclusive Organizations with Quinn Cramer

Episode notes

How can we increase diversity in the fire service?

Hello Smart Firefighting Community!

Welcome to another episode of covering real world innovations via interviews with fire service and technology industry experts that empower YOU to develop your very own Smart Firefighting strategy!

In this episode:

Why equal opportunities and gender balance are key to fostering diversity of thought

How Women & Firefighting Australasia is working to create safer and more inclusive fire service organizations

Why collaboration between fire engineers and firefighters is essential for building safety

Hear from Quinn Cramer - the President of Women & Firefighting Australasia .

Quinn shares her insights on the progress and challenges of increasing diversity and representation in the fire service. She reflects on the history of women in firefighting in Australia and the efforts to build safer and more inclusive organizations. Quinn emphasizes the importance of creating equal opportunities for everyone, fostering diversity of thought, and ensuring a gender balance in recruitment and leadership roles.

She discusses the need for better collaboration between fire engineers and firefighters to enhance building safety and understanding. Quinn also offers valuable advice on the power of courage—encouraging others to pursue their work and life with wholehearted dedication.

So take a listen to hear what she has to share!

Episode Resources:

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Chapters

1. 0:00 Intro from the IFE booth at AFAC 2024
2. 0:51 Quinn Cramer joins
3. 1:17 A short history of women in Australian firefighting
4. 2:41 From being mistaken for admin staff
5. 2:55 What Women and Firefighting Australasia does
6. 3:52 Safer PPE for everyone
7. 4:28 About 11 percent female
8. 5:20 Simple ways to increase diversity
9. 7:15 Next steps for women in leadership
10. 8:46 Recruitment, retention and parental leave
11. 9:44 Saving space for voices that aren't heard
12. 10:15 Always ask why
13. 11:43 Like a Girl, and saying firefighter
14. 12:55 What Quinn loves about the fire service
15. 13:41 Prevention and cultural burning
16. 14:38 The Institution of Fire Engineers
17. 16:05 Courage: doing it with your whole heart
18. 17:25 Wrap

Questions answered in this episode

What is Women and Firefighting Australasia and what does it do?

Quinn Cramer explains that the organization formed in 2006 to provide support networks for women firefighters who were isolated in their workplaces. It holds a biennial conference where women can meet others, develop connections, and share experiences. The organization advocates for safer PPE and inclusive work environments for everyone, not just women.

Hear it at 3:07

What percentage of firefighters in Australia are women?

Quinn Cramer says the average across Australasian organizations is about 10 percent. Some organizations have rates as high as 20 percent while others are as low as 4 percent, varying between different organizations.

Hear it at 4:43

What are some ways to increase women's representation in the fire service?

Quinn Cramer suggests making sure women know they can join, providing opportunities to learn technical skills before testing, recruiting relative to the job as it is today rather than 20 years ago, and ensuring gender balance on recruitment panels to reduce bias.

Hear it at 5:29

When were women legally allowed to become firefighters in Australia?

Quinn Cramer says women were firefighters in the 1900s and during World War Two, but it was made illegal for women to become permanent firefighters just after World War Two. The Sex Discrimination Act in 1982 allowed women to be firefighters again, though with very low numbers.

Hear it at 1:34

What does Quinn Cramer say about the term firefighter versus fireman?

The term fireman went out in Australia in the 1990s. She says firefighter is inclusive, values everyone, and shows young girls that they can do the job too.

Hear it at 12:55

Transcript

Machine transcript of the published audio. Names may be misspelled and some sections are missing.

Ep 272 transcript

Creating Safer and More Inclusive Organizations with Quinn Cramer

Speakers: Kevin Sofen, Quinn Cramer

Source: Whisper medium.en machine transcription of the published Podbean audio (no original transcript found in Drive), lightly cleaned. Speakers were separated by voice clustering and then checked and assigned by hand at every speaker change. Gaps where the model returned no usable text are marked [inaudible m:ss].

[0:00] Kevin Sofen: Welcome to a mini Smart Firefighting podcast series, recorded live at the Institute of Fire Engineers booth during the 2024 AFAC Show Down Under in Sydney, Australia. Throughout these conversations, we dive into critical issues like fire safety, emerging technologies, diversity in the fire service, and innovative solutions for emergency response. fascinating insights from leaders around the world on how we can build a safer and more resilient future. Quinn Cramer, president of Women and Firefighting Australasia, shares her insights of increasing diversity and creating safer, more inclusive fire service organizations. She highlights the importance of collaboration between fire engineers and firefighters and the power of courage and wholehearted dedication. All right. Podcast 13 at AFAC sitting alongside Quinn Cramer with Women and Firefighting Australasia, Quinn, how you doing?

[0:58] Quinn Cramer: I'm fantastic, thanks for having me, Ken.

[1:00] Kevin Sofen: Of course, how has your AFAC experience been?

[1:04] Quinn Cramer: It's been good. Every year we've been coming back for probably six years now to AFAC. And every time we come along, we're meeting new people, meeting old friends, having really interesting conversations and meaningful conversations in the emergency service space.

[1:17] Kevin Sofen: Right on, and then you're saying you've been here for a couple of years now, and now you're here today. What's changed in the time that you've been here for better or for worse from whether it's, you know, again, we talked about the people aspect or the technology aspect or just kind of anything that comes to mind that you think has changed for better or for worse last six years.

[1:34] Quinn Cramer: I think there's been a lot of progress in general. So just going back to some of the history of women and firefighting, like women were firefighters in Australia back in the 1900s and then in during World War Two, until it was made illegal for women to become permanent firefighters just after World War Two. And until the Sex Discrimination Act passed in 1982, which allowed women to be firefighters again with really low numbers. And then in 2006, there was a forum held out of which WAFA became an organisation. And then we slowly becoming more and more intertwined with AFAC and the organisations as an advocacy space. And since we first co-located back in 2016 and then attended the conference regularly, there's been a lot of development in the people management space. So looking at creating safer, inclusive organisations that women feel valued at. And we've really seen a lot more organisations coming to us to revise, becoming better advocates for women in their organisations. And that's been really great to see. There's still a lot of work to be done, but it's great to see that there has been movement change, especially in the exhibition hall. When we first attended, a lot of people just thought we were admin staff and they'd give us the lighter tools to hold when we're, you know, the heavier tools are the ones that we're used to on our truck. So feeling like we belong here a lot better since we started coming and the interactions we've had has been really significant improvements.

[2:57] Kevin Sofen: Thanks for that context, Quinn, and I'd love to know more even about your organization. What exactly does it do and how is it a resource for members of the fire service?

[3:07] Quinn Cramer: Yeah, so Women and Firefighting Australasia formed back in 2006 when there was a need seen because back then I think women made up maybe two or three percent of the workforce and we didn't really have that support network available. It's grown now to about 10 percent, but still, like I know when I first joined the job, I was the only female at my station, the nearest female was 100K away. So the ability to come to, we hold a biennial conference, to come to a conference, meet other women, develop those support networks and create those connections is really valuable. When you go back, you've got people that you can reach out, share experiences with that. Similar but different to our male colleagues. So Women and Firefighting offer that. We've got a website where we try and share a lot of different links, valuable insights that are unique to women and also men because a lot of the things that we discuss are not just women's issues, they're human rights issues. The PPE is a big one. We've been really pushing and advocating with AFAC and organisations to have safer PPE. It's not just us, women that struggle sometimes with PPE, men come in all different shapes and sizes too, so it's making sure that everyone has safe equipment, safe work environments, and that's what we're really about, you know, creating basically just safe and inclusive work environments for everyone, not just women, but we obviously do advocate for women because we're a minority, so we need that more of a voice and advocacy in some spaces.

[4:29] Kevin Sofen: I had the fortune of sitting in on Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell's conversation at the New South Wales Fire Department just down the road here, and she had pointed out that actually there's maybe somewhere around like 11 percent of the fire service here is female?

[4:43] Quinn Cramer: Yeah, I think that's the average across all the Australasian organizations. So some organizations have higher rates, some are as high as 20, but some are back as low as four. So it varies between the different organizations. Some do it better, some need to like improve their recruitment, but it's good to see that everyone's part of the conversation trying to improve their rates because women make up 50% of the population and especially with the volunteer organizations, they're really struggling for membership now. So unless you're, you know, going to reach out, you're missing out on a large population of people who could be willing and able to go out and assist and, you know, help their communities.

[5:22] Kevin Sofen: What are some of your hot takes and ways that we can continue to increase women in diversity representation in the fire service?

[5:29] Quinn Cramer: It's not just women, I suppose, it's all diversity within all organizations where, you know, it's come from a background where it's very quite hired, like for like. So there's simple things that we could do. So making sure women know that they are able to join, so you can be what you can see, having that visibility out there. A lot of the times too, with the physical tests, it's not necessarily the physical limitation that's holding it back. It could be a technical skill. So providing opportunities for women to go in and learn about those technical skills, putting the physical ability into the technical skill, and if then it quite be short, just showing them different ways to train for it. Ensuring when you're doing recruitment, that you're recruiting relative to the job as it is today, not what it was 20 years ago. And having a gender balance sometimes on panels, so you're excluding that, the bias that can sometimes come in if you're just used to recruiting like for like. So if you've got a 50 split of women to men, that you're getting a bit of balance of ideas and also questions that are coming through. So making sure it's relevant. A great example I heard was from compatriots in the women's service in the UK during COVID. There was a lot less fires and there was a lot more need to go out and be mindful in the community. So it's not just about being able to pull people out. It's being able to go out, talk to the community, make sure they've got fire safe messages. And to be honest, sometimes women are better at going out and talking to the community than men. So it's not just about putting out fires now. It's about making sure we connect with our community, develop tools to make them resilient and like it's important to be representative of the community because it creates those connections and also it brings especially in the volunteering space when you feel connected to your community you want to volunteer you want to go in and help out so there's a lot of different little things that you can do but there's also some really simple things.

[7:15] Kevin Sofen: Yeah well said and I'm very fortunate and blessed that I am one of seven kids and I have three sisters and a mother who raised me perfectly and I'm very grateful for my the matriarchal household that I grew up in and a big believer in terms of when I know in North America that may be different for the indigenous mindset here but there is a lot of matriarchal run societies within the Native American tribes and then within North America and frankly there's just a you know a lot of them are you know still you know obviously in operating in different capacities but very well run and oftentimes I do believe that woman-run organizations are usually kind of operated better and we all have our own different pieces of the puzzle but you know on top of just kind of like increasing diversity representation, where do you see kind of like next steps as far as just like continuing to whether it's like promotion whether it's continued representation you know granted like looking at Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell the highest position in USA as well as a lot of you know the still of her team members all being female representation like I do feel like it's gotten better but at the same time it's still like we need to do more so I'm not exactly sure where you know my open-ended statement question is but what else you know can and Dr. Laurie's phrase of one fire service one voice how can other .org .gov .edu private and small and big companies get involved in a way that whether it's when the organization directly or other like-minded organizations what would you say the groups about like how can they get involved and what should they be thinking about?

[8:47] Quinn Cramer: I think to the point of creating more women leaders it's fine. We need to work on recruitment, but then we also need to work on retention and creating that path. I think women are often still seen as the primary caregivers. So there's barriers when they're having children, caring for children, even women with elderly parents. So I think as a society as a whole, we need to change the way we look at the gender roles. So more of a 50-50 split. I think some of the countries over in Scandinavia have become really good at that, creating better offers parental leave so we can split it up so the men can stay home and the women can go to work. So creating equal opportunities for everyone. So what's available for women becomes available for men. Tear down some of those barriers for women to progress through the ranks. And then we'd want to say gender is a big issue and it's an easy one to highlight, but it's all that diversity of thought and making sure we hear everyone's voices. So it's not necessarily just one voice, but it's a voice for everyone and ensuring we make a space at the table for people who don't have a voice. I'm quite lucky with my role in women firefighting. You know, I'm able to advocate and I get to talk to some really important people, but I'm mindful of the fact that I have that privilege to do that. So I save space for others who I know don't have that voice and provide opportunity. to amplify them. I think that's really important that we're not missing out on those people who have been missed for so many times and we nearly really need to promote them as well and like if women win everyone wins. We're all people so as long as we're kind and respectful and create those safe environments we can only improve.

[10:17] Kevin Sofen: Yeah well said and it's so important to have people that are I want to say like-minded but actually very that think differently around you at the table so it's It's only going to lead to making sure that you're not just having a bunch of yes people saying yes to all the time. It's good to be challenged and questioned, especially as you're trying to ask why are we doing that?

[10:38] Quinn Cramer: One of the great things in fire services and I work in a fire service is they always say there's two things firefighters hate and that's the way things are now and change. So I think one of the important things we do is always progressively ask why. Is it the best practice? Is it the most inclusive practice? Is it a safe practice?

[10:54] Kevin Sofen: One of my favorite books is the whole Freakonomics series and in there's a this one of the most recent as books is a It's called think like a freak but in there's a chapter called think like a kid part of it's just kind of not having these predisposed Notions about this is the way stuff is and not like necessarily believing This is the only way it has to be in kind of just asking why and so you can't ask why anymore? and I think that kind of endless curiosity by asking why we do something is good because when I hear in the fire service of this is the way it's always done I'm kind of like always as in like since the dawn of humanity like I hearing Australia of people have been here for 60,000 years But what we're doing is 60,000 years ago And so just but we started doing something 150 years ago doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing to be doing by any means

[11:43] Quinn Cramer: Yeah, there's definitely progress amazed. We can look at new ways to do things and when we're including everyone in that discussion we're probably going to get a greater resource of ideas to be able to improve. And when you're talking about, it reminds me of a campaign that I saw in America and it's on YouTube and it's the Like a Girl campaign. And it highlights the fact that, you know, when we say, if you run like a girl, what does that look like? And if you ask a young girl to run like a girl, it means she runs as fast as she can. And it's like highlighting when did doing something like a girl become a bad thing, which is something that society's created. So there's really simple things that we can do to reframe the way we look at them, like saying firefighter instead of fireman. We haven't had fireman in Australia, that term went out in the 90s. It's firefighter, it's inclusive, it values everyone, and it shows young girls that they can do the job too. If we create those bright futures for our youth, because they're really the future. If we can create those opportunities for them and show that we can create these workplaces where they can do anything they want, and really The sky is the oyster with the technology we've got, the AI, who knows what firefighting is going to look like in 50 years. So if we give these children a vision and a dream and get them on the pathway, we can do amazing things.

[12:55] Kevin Sofen: What do you love about the fire service?

[12:58] Quinn Cramer: I love that every day is different. I love that I get to work with a great bunch of people. And I love that I get to go out in the community and make a difference. I come from small, smaller towns up in the central Queensland area. And it's, it is really a community. we go out, we work together, we help, you know, make a difference on someone's darkest day. But also if we can go out and talk to the young kids and provide them advice so they don't have to go through those dark days. Really, if we go into a fire or an accident, we've already sort of missed a step in the prevention space. So it's great to get out there in the community, be there for them and hopefully prevent them from needing us. Like that's the ultimate goal. If we didn't need to exist, then we're doing a good thing.

[13:41] Kevin Sofen: you just opened the door thinking of that last statement of, you know, potentially preventing disasters from happening, but the whole idea of community risk reduction and preventing disasters from happening. Have you done any work or you do anything with any public safety outreach or community risk reduction about trying to prevent any disasters from happening or any thoughts on that?

[13:59] Quinn Cramer: It's a difficult one because there's so many different organizations and going that. I'm lucky not just necessarily through Women and Firefighting but my own organization. I've been able to see some of the cultural burning and the adaptation that a lot of organizations have gone through that. And like, as you said before, like Australia has been in habit of 60,000 years. There's a lot of knowledge that was potentially lost a little while ago that we're really starting to go back and capture about how we can care for the landscape and in turn care for the communities and reduce that risk. So the rise of that's been really encouraging to see.

[14:32] Kevin Sofen: Right on. Well, I think we're kind of being kicked out of here slowly, but I got two more questions I still need to ask and then we'll be out of here. One is the Institute of Fire Engineers. In your words, what is it, you know, and what's kind of, what's been your organization's alignment with it and any kind of thoughts on IFE?

[14:47] Quinn Cramer: Yeah, so we've been, I met, Ryan had really good discussions when we were co-located with AFAC in Brisbane last year. We had some really interesting discussions. Yeah, I'd really like to work more with the IFE and get the word out there because there was a real misconception that I even had, not just as a female, like if I went back to my station to ask the guys what the Institute of Fire Engineers because the general assumption is that there must be engineers who sit in an office and not really the greatest understanding of how it aligns with everyday fire service. But I think there's work to be done because I didn't even know myself last year that I could join the Institute of Fire Engineers through my qualifications. So yeah, it's interesting work the data. It's really important, especially with the changing landscape, with the cladding and all the different changes to building fire safety that I think we need to do a bit more work to get the information out so people have a great understanding about it.

[15:38] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, it's definitely needed for this holistic approach between the building safety and smart buildings and fire engineers to the response side and prevention side and integrating all these things to where it is not.

[15:50] Quinn Cramer: The better we understand how they're built, the better we can help combat the fires and also train people about how to stay safe in the buildings and prevent the fires.

[15:56] Kevin Sofen: And then on the other side of, for fire engineers to understand what it's like to use charge hose and what it's like to wear PPE and yeah developing and having empathy on both sides will ultimately lead to much better outcomes. And so kind of final thing you had you said a great point earlier about you know asking why. I would love any sort of a kind of quote or words of wisdom that you live by or that is really ingrained in the organization that you could leave us with here today.

[16:23] Quinn Cramer: For me personally I like to we always talk about our values for organizations. One of my values, I'm a big Brene Brown fan and one of her organization always talk about firefighters and courage. So some of the definitions that you talk about with courage is to, you know, you got courage because you run into a burning building, but I like to look at her definition of it and it's the original Latin, which is core. It goes back to doing something with your whole heart. Like I do the WAFA, the women firefighting, and I am a firefighter because I'm passionate about it. I do it with my whole heart and I really believe in what we're doing and trying to achieve as an organization. And I think if you go in with that sort of perspective, you can't really go wrong.

[17:02] Kevin Sofen: My wife is a big fan and I know she tells me, she told me about The Body Keeps the Score. And I think that just, I don't know, I didn't read it, but I do think a lot of her methodology from leading with the whole heart and continuing to have a holistic approach in how we approach our physical and mental health and taking that into making sure we're taking care of ourselves and leading that into the organizations around us allows us to set ourselves up for success, the organizations are for success. And yeah, I couldn't agree more with everything you've talked about, Quinn, and just appreciate the work that you're doing and excited to continue to see where Women in Firefighting Australia continue to go in the next couple of years.

[17:37] Quinn Cramer: Yeah. Thank you for your time.

[17:40] Kevin Sofen: Thank you. Take care. Thanks for listening to this episode recorded alongside the Institute of Fire Engineers during the AFAC Show. If you found value in the conversation or learned something new, we'd love to hear from you. share your thoughts, and let's keep the discussion going on how we can shape the future of smart firefighting.