Episode 269: The Importance of Interoperability in Rail Fire with Nicholas Coney and Brett Richardson

Episode notes

What are the challenges (and solutions) of emergency response in the rail corridor?

Hello Smart Firefighting Community!

Welcome to another episode of covering real world innovations via interviews with fire service and technology industry experts that empower YOU to develop your very own Smart Firefighting strategy!

In this episode:

The specialized skills and equipment needed for rail emergencies

The evolution of Rail Fire in New South Wales as it adapts to new challenges

How Rail Fire and Fire and Rescue NSW exemplify the importance of interoperability

Hear from Nicholas Coney (from Rail Fire and Emergency in New South Wales) and Brett Richardson (Manager of Fire & Emergency Operations for Transport for NSW ).

Nicholas and Brett share their experiences and the unique challenges of managing incidents within the rail corridor. They discuss the critical need for interoperability between Rail Fire and Fire and Rescue NSW to ensure effective response efforts in the rail industry.

The conversation covers the specialized skills and equipment required to handle the hazards specific to rail emergencies, as well as the history and evolution of Rail Fire as it adapts to new technologies and challenges.

Nicholas and Brett also highlight the role of the Institution of Fire Engineers in promoting knowledge sharing and the importance of maintaining high standards to ensure safety and efficiency within the fire service.

So take a listen to hear what they have to share!

Episode Resources:

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Chapters

1. 0:00 Intro from the IFE booth at AFAC 2024
2. 0:49 Nicholas Coney and Brett Richardson join
3. 1:11 Tim Tam talk
4. 2:11 Why New South Wales has a rail fire service
5. 3:45 Rail Fire: 129 years and a specialist skill set
6. 5:45 From railway dances to a new pumper
7. 6:47 Integrated with Fire and Rescue NSW
8. 7:27 Why the rail corridor needs specialists
9. 8:43 What interoperability means
10. 10:51 What makes rail response hard
11. 11:18 Railway fire brigades around the world
12. 12:05 The hazards of the rail corridor
13. 14:05 What the IFE means to them
14. 15:07 The standard you walk past
15. 15:55 Be kind
16. 16:33 Wrap

Questions answered in this episode

What is Rail Fire and Emergency and how long has it been around?

Brett Richardson says Rail Fire and Emergency has been around since 1895, making it 129 years old. It started as a volunteer firefighting brigade and has evolved over time, from responding to steam trains to now dealing with driverless trains. It is part of Transport for New South Wales and operates one fire station.

Hear it at 3:54

Why does New South Wales need a specialized rail fire service?

Nicholas Coney explains that the rail corridor is a uniquely hazardous environment with heavy vehicles traveling at high speeds with long stopping distances. Rail Fire and Emergency specializes in incidents involving trains, rolling stock, and the rail corridor, similar to how airport firefighters specialize in aircraft incidents or mines rescue works in mines.

Hear it at 2:37

What special training and skills do Rail Fire crew members need?

Brett Richardson says crew members need unique rail‐specific skills such as track vehicle operator, which allows them to identify signals when on track, safety critical communications, and protection officer qualifications. The majority come from Fire and Rescue New South Wales as fully trained firefighters, and then spend 18 to 24 months completing rail credit accreditations.

Hear it at 3:54

How do Rail Fire and Fire and Rescue New South Wales work together?

Brett Richardson says they have had a memorandum of understanding for over 30 years. Rail Fire has integrated communications and is dispatched by Fire and Rescue. They train together, use the same radio channels, and Rail Fire crews slot into the command structure at incidents as a fully self‐contained crew.

Hear it at 9:00

What makes rail incidents especially dangerous for firefighters?

Nicholas Coney says hazards include overhead power supply, track carrying current, switches that can trap people, long travel distances between safe areas, and trains that cannot stop quickly. Modern tunnels can be three to six kilometers long with intervention points at one and a half kilometer intervals, meaning firefighters work at much greater depths and distances.

Hear it at 11:18

Transcript

Machine transcript of the published audio. Names may be misspelled and some sections are missing.

Ep 269 transcript

The Importance of Interoperability in Rail Fire with Nicholas Coney and Brett Richardson

Speakers: Kevin Sofen, Brett Richardson, Nicholas Coney

Source: Whisper medium.en machine transcription of the published Podbean audio (no original transcript found in Drive), lightly cleaned. Speakers were separated by voice clustering and then checked and assigned by hand at every speaker change. Gaps where the model returned no usable text are marked [inaudible m:ss].

[0:00] Kevin Sofen: Welcome to a mini Smart Firefighting podcast series, recorded live at the Institute of Fire Engineers booth during the 2024 AFAC Show Down Under in Sydney, Australia. Throughout these conversations, we dive into critical issues like fire safety, emerging technologies, diversity in the fire service, and innovative solutions for emergency response. fascinating insights from leaders around the world on how we can build a safer and more resilient future. Nicholas Coney and Brett Richardson, working with Transport for New South Wales, discuss the challenges of emergency response in the rail corridor. They highlight the importance of interoperability between rail fire and fire rescue New South Wales and the specialized skills needed for rail emergencies. Officially on podcast 12, sitting alongside Nicholas Coney and Brett Richardson, happy AFAC. How's AFAC been treating you guys?

[0:59] Brett Richardson: Yeah, really good, interesting. Great presentations and Nick's just finished his presentation.

[1:05] Nicholas Coney: Oh, look, it's been an outstanding experience. It's a fantastic opportunity to meet people you haven't seen for a while and to collaborate.

[1:11] Kevin Sofen: So now we're hanging out in here in this little podcast box with just Tim Tams for everyone. For every podcast I've done today, I think I've had at least one Tim Tam. And Nick, you were saying that I shouldn't be in Tim Tams, but I don't know.

[1:22] Nicholas Coney: I'm actually really impressed with your choice dark choc mint because, you know, it sort of combines the best elements of a Tim Tam and a mint slice to really get pretty close to the ultimate.

[1:30] Kevin Sofen: And I heard the double layered Tim Tam is really the ultimate.

[1:33] Nicholas Coney: Yeah, look, I don't know. I guess what concerns me is that it is a strong deviation from the original and the original is the best.

[1:40] Kevin Sofen: Okay, yeah, I'm still learning.

[1:42] Nicholas Coney: Well, there's plenty of flavors to choose from. I think you've started in a good place. I might bring you some mint slices for tomorrow so you can have some diversity in there as well.

[1:49] Kevin Sofen: I do, I'm thinking about having, instead of like that one show that's just talking about hot wings and eating hot wings as you go. We're gonna just eat Tim Tams and talk fire tech.

[1:59] Nicholas Coney: Okay. And maybe, look, you'll probably have to, I think the important part of that, you'll have to demonstrate a Tim Tam suck.

[2:04] Kevin Sofen: I still don't know what it is.

[2:05] Nicholas Coney: No, well, we'll figure that out. Okay. And you can show the audience. Yeah. I think that's podcast 13.

[2:10] Kevin Sofen: Absolutely. So we're again at AFAC and it's really an amazing gathering of all the different minds around Australia and particularly here in New South Wales Fire and Rescue. What was your presentation on? I mean, earlier we were talking a little bit about rail incident, emergency response management, and just kind of the unique challenges and obstacles that faces, but from a high level, from someone that knows nothing, I need to know the 10 seconds of what you told me about earlier. Tell me about what that means.

[2:37] Nicholas Coney: So in New South Wales, the state of New South Wales, we've got a fairly unique situation in that we have Fire and Rescue New South Wales, Urban Fire Service, the Rural Fire Service, a Rural Fire Service, and we've also got Rail Fire and Emergency. and Rail Fire and Emergency have got one fire station. They're part of Transport for New South Wales, an entirely separate government department, and their specialty is responding to incidents in the rail corridor. And Fire and Rescue New South Wales and Rail Fire and Emergency work very closely together, and have worked very hard to make sure that our activities are interoperable. So in the same way that we have airport firefighters who specialise in incidents involving aircraft, we have industrial firefighters working at refineries, and we have Mines Rescue working in mines, In the rail industry in New South Wales, we have Rail Fire and Emergency, who specialize in incidents involving trains and rolling stock and the rail corridor, which is a uniquely hazardous environment when you've got heavy vehicles with long stopping distances traveling at high speeds. And also, the potential to cause huge cost and disruption to the community when you consider the amount of freight and passengers that are involved in that as well. So rail fire are a really important part of restoring normality when there's an emergency in that situation.

[3:45] Kevin Sofen: So, Brett, you're with Rail Fire.

[3:47] Brett Richardson: That's correct, yeah.

[3:48] Kevin Sofen: And tell me from a high-level perspective, who, what, why, where, rail fire?

[3:54] Brett Richardson: Yeah, rail fire. So we've been around since 1895, so 129 years and celebrating our 130th year next year, which will be an exciting time for the team. And as Nick had said in his presentation a little bit earlier on, is we started off as a volunteer firefighting brigade, and it's evolved since that time the same way that We've gone from steam trains to electric, and now we're dealing with, or responding to driverless trains. So we've been around since the dawn of time, and the team provides a specialist skill that is based upon a very challenging rail environment. So they're required to have a unique set of skills, such as track vehicle operator, which allows them to identify signals when they're on track. Then we have some specialist equipment such as an emergency response high rail, which is the only one that exists in Australia. So most common in the United States and in Europe, but we're the only team in Australia that actually has that emergency response capability. Is that a vehicle that has wheels and rail? Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. So the staff are actually one of the specialist skills is that the majority come from Fire and Rescue New South Wales, which is where we get that strong interoperability between the two agencies. But they also come from defence as well. And so when we recruit, we get a fully trained firefighter and then we're spending the next 18 to 24 months running them through the rail credit accreditations that they require, such as that track vehicle operation, but also safety critical comms and also protection officer qualifications as well. And that's where we really, I suppose, provide that point of difference because it's such a regulated and complex and challenging environment, the rail network, and we're there to ensure that if fire and rescue need a rail capability, that we're there to support them.

[5:45] Nicholas Coney: Brett, is it true that in the early days of rail fire, one of their most critical roles was providing fire protection for railway dances?

[5:52] Kevin Sofen: I think this is where we would give a Tim Tam at the moment. One Tim Tam for you.

[5:57] Brett Richardson: One Tim Tam, that's exactly right.

[6:00] Nicholas Coney: Thanks Brett.

[6:00] Brett Richardson: Yeah, obviously, back in the days, when they used to have a lot of dances, and the halls were predominantly known for some of the catastrophic fires, our team was there to support those important dances, which was so, yes, we have come from very humble beginnings. But like I said, we're celebrating very proudly 130 years next year.

[6:21] Kevin Sofen: And it's like a good opportunity for a party and maybe bringing them back.

[6:24] Brett Richardson: That's exactly right. Well, we've evolved a little bit since then. But we do, we really have some specialist equipment. And we've recently taken the delivery of a brand new pumper, and it has a mobile emergency trolley that allows us to be able to deliver that specialist skill and provide access to track when we're dispatched by fire and rescue to assist them in those rail emergencies. So I can't emphasise enough, as a small team, as we said, we're one station, but I can't emphasise enough the relationship that we have with Fire and Rescue. We have integrated communications, so we're dispatched by Fire and Rescue. They provide us with access to PPE, and we have a fully integrated fire station equipment, including satellite and automatic vehicle locators on all of our appliances, which are monitored by FireCom. So we get the strength of Fire and Rescue New South Wales, our state firefighting agency, but we're able to still exist and utilise those specialist skills that are really honed in for those rail emergencies.

[7:28] Nicholas Coney: The Rail Fire has had a number of roles over the years. They've been involved in equipment inspection and testing and training of railway staff, and over the years they've really evolved into becoming a fire service that specialises in supporting other agencies in the rail corridor, as much as they're firefighters in their own right as well. Firefighters are used to working on the road, firefighters are used to working with cars. they're not used to going into the rail corridor. One of the reasons behind that is that the rail corridor is such a dangerous place we tend to fence it off and not let people go in there unless they've got permission to go in there in the first place. And railway rolling stock brings its own set of hazards and set of controls and functions and things like that. And so if you've got someone like Rail Fire who can come along and go, not safe to go there right now, yes it is safe to go there now and when you go there these are the things that you need to know and this is how we can support you. And that's what Rail Fire brings to the bigger picture. The other thing I think that people don't appreciate is the amount of infrastructure that's behind the scenes that goes into delivering a railway to the community. And as railways and railway stations become more complicated, then there's more and more infrastructure behind the scenes in those railways. So as firefighters, when we turn up at a site that we're not familiar with, we want to see someone who knows the site well, who knows where to find things, who knows how the systems work, and that's something that Rail Fire contribute as well.

[8:43] Kevin Sofen: One word that you both said in different contexts here throughout the day is the word interoperability. In layman's terms, what is interoperability? And ultimately, how are you how would you strive to accomplish that between fire rescue in New South Wales and rail fire?

[9:00] Brett Richardson: So the first thing I would say for me has been one of the longest memoranda of understanding that we have exists between rail fire and fire and rescue. It's over 30 years that we've had an MOU in place. And we've recently updated that to, I suppose, reflect on the modern applications that we have in today's firefighting world. But one of the things that exists in that interoperability is that if we're going to be taking fire and rescue firefighters either into a tunnel or into a high rail, we need to speak the same, we need to be able to communicate the same language, we need to understand what the limitations are of each agency. And by training together, by undertaking regular emergency exercises…

[9:49] Nicholas Coney: By having the same training as well is an important part there too. So our firefighters have completed the same training that Rail Fire's firefighters completed.

[9:56] Brett Richardson: Yeah, so we try and mirror, or we certainly try and mirror… whatever Fire and Rescue is doing, and we're fortunate enough to be supported and we have been supported for more than 30 years. The MOU has been in existence for that period of time, but it's been a lot longer than that. We've had this fantastic relationship since 1895. So it has stood the test of time and it does provide that unique characteristic of a true partnership.

[10:22] Nicholas Coney: But for me, it's about the fact that our staff get to train together. they therefore feel confident about going into a situation because they know that the person standing next to them has had the same training as the person that's taking them into that hazardous environment. Operationally, when rail fire arrive at incident, they arrive as a fully self-contained crew that slots into the command structure that's already at the incident. They operate on the same radio channels, they take their orders from the same incident commander.

[10:51] Kevin Sofen: And one thing that I would love to hear from both of you is, again, this challenge of rail. What makes rail fire service response such a challenge and where are you going to learn from? Craig Hiscock was here earlier, talking about the video training he'd done in New Zealand, but what makes it such a challenge and who else are you kind of learning from? And maybe you're writing the book yourself, but I'm sure you're kind of looking elsewhere for some knowledge sharing, so.

[11:18] Nicholas Coney: So look, I think the first thing we suggested earlier is that rail fire in Australia is an anomaly. And so when I sort of first started on this project, the first questions I ask myself is, why do we need a railway fire brigade? And not questioning whether we needed a railway fire brigade, but why do we have a railway fire brigade? And so I looked at what was happening overseas. And it turns out that having a railway fire brigade is not an uncommon thing at all. Swiss Federal Railways have got 16 fire brigades and 350-odd employees. The Austrian Federal Railways have just ordered themselves 16 new firefighting trains. London Underground has four emergency response units in London alone. So in the same way that we have an airport fire brigade at an airport, it's not uncommon to have fire brigades and emergency response units in general that specialise in railways. And what railways bring is a whole bunch of hazards that firefighters, that people in general, don't normally encounter. And that is the overhead power supply, that is track that is potentially carrying current, that is switches on the track that if you're not careful you can become trapped in, that's are long travel distances between places of safety. So go back a few years when tunnels were shorter, when the rail corridor was more accessible, it was less of an issue. But now that we're building tunnels that are three kilometres long, six kilometres long, that have intervention points at one and a half kilometre intervals, you're talking about much greater travel distances for firefighters and needing to work at much greater depths inside structures. So you're talking about trains that can't stop on site alone. I mean if I want a car to stop I can wave my hands in the air and say stop if I'm a few meters away, well a reasonable distance away, and the driver will slam on the brakes and bring it to a halt. With a train it doesn't matter how hard you slam on those brakes if that train's heavy it's going to keep coming and a long distance and that's one of the reasons why we say you know don't go into the rail corridor until you know the rolling stock has been stopped. And then the rail industry itself is very heavily regulated to protect its workers from harm So whenever firefighters turn up in the rail corridor and we bring things like stretchers and ladders and hoses with water, they get very nervous when we start using it around electricity because there's a risk of electrocution not only to firefighters, but 20 bystanders as well.

[13:30] Brett Richardson: I think for me to sort of answer the question is that whilst it's unique in Australia, this relationship, it's not unique in the world and it exists in a number of places in Europe and USA. So from our perspective, we tend to try and draw upon all of those resources that are currently being operating these joint responses across Europe and also the states. That's where we're looking for. We're also, I suppose, building these for ourselves in Australia and we now have Queensland and Victoria looking to see what New South Wales is doing in this environment.

[14:05] Kevin Sofen: Two final questions before we wrap up. One is we're here in the Institute of Fire Engineers booth and I know you both have different relationships with the IFE, in your words, what is the IFE and what purpose does it serve within the global fire service?

[14:20] Nicholas Coney: Sharing of knowledge and an opportunity to meet like-minded colleagues.

[14:24] Brett Richardson: And look, for me, I'm a member of the IFE, a proud member of the IFE, and for me, coming from a single station, the people that I've been able to connect with and the opportunities that been able to provide to Rail Fire as a result of being a member of the IFE, it's probably I get a lot more out of it And then say Nick might, because he's part of a 7,000 strong organization where for my perspective, coming here and being able to network with like-minded people, it is an anomaly where a rail fire and emergency service in a transport agency, unlike Nick, who actually is part of the emergency services. So for the IFE for me, it provides me with an opportunity to network, build on what we have in terms of the current skills, but also provide us with education as well.

[15:07] Kevin Sofen: Love it. And final question is sort of a little curve ball, but kind of a favorite quote or words of wisdom or something that you live by or something within the fire service that you work in any sort of quote that you think that comes to mind that you can leave us with here today. there?

[15:23] Brett Richardson: For me it's, this is an easy one, but the standard you walk past is the, you know, the standard that you accept. And from what I see every morning with my own team, just doing those SIMS checks, you know, they can almost be like Groundhog Day every day. But the fact that we set that standard, that we're going to make sure that our equipment, our specialist equipment is ready to roll if required. Our rail fire motto, if you like, is always ready, semper paratus. And it's something that we live by, so that to me has great meaning.

[15:55] Nicholas Coney: I'm gonna, I think I'm knocking off Phoenix Fire Department when I say this one, and it's be kind.

[15:59] Kevin Sofen: I mean I'm pretty sure that was the Ted Lasso terminology, but yeah, usually you know just by oftentimes being kind is usually if you put out good into the world it usually finds a way to come back to you, and yeah just being a good person and not being the opposite side of that is something I try to live by as well. And again, I can safely say the Australian fire service members and all of you guys have been extremely kind to me. So I'm really grateful and I've learned a lot. I'm really thankful for everything you guys are doing.

[16:27] Nicholas Coney: Well, it's great to meet you. Thanks for your time.

[16:29] Kevin Sofen: You as well.

[16:29] Brett Richardson: Thank you very much. Cheers.

[16:31] Kevin Sofen: Appreciate it. Thanks for listening to this episode recorded alongside the Institute of Fire Engineers during the AFAC Show. If you found value in the conversation or learned something new, We'd love to hear from you. Reach out, share your thoughts, and let's keep the discussion going on how we can shape the future of smart firefighting. Thank you.