Smart Firefighting Podcast

Episode 267: Promoting Diversity and Inclusion in the Fire Service with Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton and Michael Morgan

Published

Guests: Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton, Michael Morgan

Topics: Health & Safety, Leadership

Episode notes

Here’s how diversity and inclusion contribute to a more effective fire service workforce:

Hello Smart Firefighting Community!

Welcome to another episode of covering real world innovations via interviews with fire service and technology industry experts that empower YOU to develop your very own Smart Firefighting strategy!

In this episode:

The importance of well-fitting PPE for firefighter safety and confidence

The value of end-user feedback in improving PPE design

Why psychological safety is key to innovation and decision-making in the fire service

Hear from Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton - the Chief Fire Officer for West Sussex Fire & Rescue Service - and Michael Morgan - the Director at the Colorado Division of Fire Prevention and Control .

This episode delves into the critical issues of PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) and diversity and inclusion within the fire service. The guests discuss how well-fitting and appropriate PPE not only ensures safety but also boosts the confidence and identity of firefighters. They explore the value of diversity and inclusion, emphasizing how it leads to a more effective and cohesive workforce.

Through personal stories and initiatives like end-user engagement and shadow boards, the conversation reveals the importance of listening to feedback to improve PPE design. The discussion also touches on psychological safety, its role in fostering good decision-making, and the Institution of Fire Engineers' efforts to promote professionalism and networking in the industry. The episode wraps up with an inspiring discussion about the sense of purpose in the fire service and the positive influence of dogs on the well-being and mental health of firefighters.

So take a listen to hear what they have to share!

Episode Resources:

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Chapters

  1. 0:00 Intro from the IFE booth at AFAC 2024
  2. 0:56 Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton and Michael Morgan join
  3. 1:31 Why PPE fit still matters in 2024
  4. 4:40 It is a safety issue, not a diversity issue
  5. 5:47 Less time on the problem, more on the solution
  6. 6:32 End user engagement and new workwear
  7. 8:23 A shadow executive board
  8. 9:22 Roundtables in New York and at AFAC
  9. 11:32 Designing out problems in new stations
  10. 14:59 Retrofitting older stations
  11. 15:31 Laundering PPE and clean and dirty areas
  12. 17:12 Safety, privacy and dignity for everyone
  13. 18:16 Psychological safety
  14. 20:08 Mental health and identity
  15. 22:40 Decision making under pressure
  16. 24:00 Operational discretion and culture
  17. 26:13 Vegemite, Marmite and Tim Tams
  18. 27:05 What the IFE means to them
  19. 28:11 A sense of purpose, and trust your dog
  20. 29:20 Wellbeing dogs
  21. 30:19 Wrap

Questions answered in this episode

Why is properly fitting PPE still an issue in the fire service?

Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton says when she joined 23 years ago, stores did not carry fire boots in her size and everything was designed for men. She explains it is both a safety issue, because poorly fitting gear creates hazards, and an identity issue, because wearing oversized kit affects confidence and professionalism.

Hear it at 2:21

What is a shadow board and how does it help decision-making?

Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton describes a shadow board as a group of people, many with lived experience of being underrepresented, who review executive board papers before top-tier meetings. They see ripples in decisions the chief might not and feed back perspectives that have changed actual decisions.

Hear it at 9:23

How can fire services get better PPE from manufacturers?

Michael Morgan says fire services need to be demanding in their tender process, asking for innovation, full sizing charts, and fit-for-purpose gear. He notes there are only dozens of serious manufacturers worldwide, so services should use their collective voice rather than acting individually.

Hear it at 9:23

What is operational discretion in incident command?

Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton explains operational discretion, introduced in national incident command policy, legitimizes applying professional judgment when the policy does not fit the situation or when following it exactly would make the outcome worse. She says the biggest barrier was culture, because people worried about not being supported if a decision went badly.

Hear it at 25:22

What is the benefit of wellbeing dogs in fire services?

Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton says she introduced wellbeing dogs into her service and they are amazing. Michael Morgan describes seeing a wellbeing dog at the conference and how people's mood lifts when they see them.

Hear it at 29:32

Transcript

Machine transcript of the published audio. Names may be misspelled and some sections are missing.

Ep 267 transcript

Promoting Diversity and Inclusion in the Fire Service with Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton and Michael Morgan

Speakers: Kevin Sofen, Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton, Michael Morgan

Source: Whisper medium.en machine transcription of the published Podbean audio (no original transcript found in Drive), lightly cleaned. Speakers were separated by voice clustering and then checked and assigned by hand at every speaker change. Gaps where the model returned no usable text are marked [inaudible m:ss].

[0:00] Kevin Sofen: Welcome to a mini Smart Firefighting podcast series, recorded live at the Institute of Fire Engineers booth during the 2024 AFAC Show Down Under in Sydney, Australia. Throughout these conversations, we dive into critical issues like fire safety, emerging technologies, diversity in the fire service, and innovative solutions for emergency response. fascinating insights from leaders around the world on how we can build a safer and more resilient future. Dr. Sabrina Hatton Cohen, the chief fire officer at West Sussex on fire and rescue services, and Michael Morgan, the director of Colorado Division of Fire Protection and Control, discussed the importance of well-fitting PPE and the value of diversity in the fire service. They highlight end-user feedback and PPE design, physiological safety and decision-making, and the positive impact of well-being of dogs on firefighter mental health. Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton and Michael Morgan, how you both doing? Welcome to AFAC.

[1:03] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: Good, thank you.

[1:04] Kevin Sofen: So what brings you both to AFAC? Why are you here?

[1:06] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: So I'm here talking about critical decision-making at incidents. I'm doing that tomorrow and I just did a talk on careers in the fire service.

[1:16] Michael Morgan: And myself on with Fire Rescue Victoria. So here really we're part of the Champions of Change Coalition. We had a session with the American contingent on Tuesday, so mainly for that, but really just to learn and hear more about what's happening around Australia, New Zealand, the world.

[1:33] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, love it. Well, I had the fortune of being a little paparazzi in that session. You may have saw me taking some photos, but it was a two-hour dialogue that was all around the PPE PPC discussion, tailored around the female, and ultimately was interesting than thinking about how we there's these challenges of how in hearing from female firefighters saying you know if this PPE doesn't fit me I don't feel confident you know if it doesn't fit me I feel like I don't belong and that kind of trying to break down this sort of just practical this obstacle that still exists and excited to hear about some of the solutions but would love to hear from both of you on like that starting with the PPE discussion and then kind of evolving to all things diversity and inclusion of the fire service why are we still talking about that I feel like we shouldn't be but nonetheless, why is that something that's relevant today? And what are we doing to combat that issue?

[2:21] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: I mean, do you know what? You're absolutely right. And there's two parts to this. The first part, I think the most crucial part is the safety aspect as well. And it's 2024. It's really frustrating that we're still having the conversation about appropriate PPE, but it's a really important one to nail down. When I first joined the fire service 23 years ago now, I can remember distinctly going to stores to get my PPE. And when I went in, I've got size four feet. And when I went in, they said, yeah, we don't do fire boots in a size four, you're going to have to wear two pairs of socks. And I can remember saying, that's just not going to work, how am I going to climb a ladder with my boots hanging off? I mean, come on. So we did manage to get boots specially made. But even then, you know, we're not talking that long ago. And I still had to have kit specially made because I'm a size four. And unfortunately, everything had been catered to men. And I understand because men were the majority. And so that's what the majority of the things that you needed were going to be. But there was just that lack of consideration, that lack of awareness. So it has got better. When you look at the PPE today, you've got fire protection padding in the right places for women. When I first joined, I was literally wearing a very small man's clothes, which wasn't great. So it has improved. But the second point that you raised, I think is just as important. And that's that sense of identity that comes with it. So if you're wearing kits that doesn't fit you, it really impacts the way that you feel about yourself and the confidence. So an example that I always give is Incident Commander Tabard. For absolutely years and years and years, probably until I was a Deputy Assistant Commissioner in London Fire Brigade, I was wearing just very generic Incident Commander Tabard. And I'm not kidding, I looked like I was wearing my dad's. It was enormous. It went down to my knees. It's embarrassing. When you turn up, you're supposed to be the one in charge. You're trying to talk to the police and other partners and make decisions. And you look like you're playing dress up in your dad's wardrobe. That is not okay. So you know, I think it's more than just the PPE, it's everything that goes with it. How do we provide people with the right equipment so that they're safe, but also the right clothing so that they feel and look professional.

[4:40] Michael Morgan: That's outstanding. You may as well have been there on Tuesday because that was a discussion we've had and we've had over a number of years. We've got to stop thinking it's around diversity, it isn't a diversity issue, it is a safety issue and the correct fitment of PPE and the interface between the top and the bottom, that's where the safety comes into itself. If we're not manufacturing or making fit-for-purpose PPE, then we're not providing safe uniforms. It's a discussion we've been having for some time. Getting back to when I joined, I've been in five services now, my second one for 39 years. When I joined, you had to be a particular height, particular chest size for chest expansion. And so we were between a certain age bracket. So we were little clones. So everything was designed around this type of person.

[5:22] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: Generic. Exactly.

[5:24] Michael Morgan: But the conversation we're having now, and we're certainly having for a number of years now, is around how you feel. and it's about you have pride in wearing our uniforms. And if you don't feel good in it and it doesn't fit well, you don't feel that pride of being part of a service. So it's about really making everyone feel welcome and having them an inclusive organization where it doesn't matter who you are or what you are or what shape or size you are, you are part of that service.

[5:47] Kevin Sofen: So in that conversation the other day, I thought it was great and I enjoyed it, but I thought we spent, it was about an hour and 45 minutes talking about the problem, which again, I think we noticed the problem. I left a little frustrated because I was like, I would have preferred to say, hey, for the most part, I think everyone in the room knew the problem, and I would have liked to spend 15 minutes on the problem and an hour and 45 on the solution. I'm curious in both of your hot takes, you know, what embracing and understanding our past, but really kind of be like, all right, it's September 2024, what are we going to do about it? You know, the rest of this year, you know, next 6, 12, 24 months from a PPE perspective and even continue to break down some of these barriers that exist from a safety perspective, from a diversity and inclusion perspective, What are some of your thoughts on the project you're working on or ways that we're addressing this issue?

[6:32] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: In my service, one of the things that we've really majored on is end user engagement. So for anything that we do, whether it's new equipment, whether it's PPE and we did run a project recently on work where we are really focused on getting the people in that are going to be using this stuff eventually as well, because the decision has to be about more than what it says on the specification and how much something costs. This is really practical. This is what does it feel like? This is how useful is it going to be for you? How is it going to help you to do your job? We trust firefighters to do things that are really difficult. We trust them to know what to do when people are having the worst day they've ever had. And we have to prepare them for that. And part of that means giving them the right equipment and giving them the right kit to go into that. So end user engagement is crucial. So we've elongated the timelines of everything that we do to build that in. And that's been really helpful for us. With our work web project, for example, We made sure that we had all groups in the service that were trialling the various different bits of workwear that we were bringing in. We ended up with something that I think is really good. We've got now wicker-wear shirts that people wear instead of the old cotton things that just used to frankly get really smelly after you go to one job at once. It's been really good. I mean, they're lightweight. So for women experiencing the menopause, you've already got something built in that's going to be the most useful material for people. So then you don't have to wear something different or be uncomfortable just because a particular stage you're at in your life and that shouldn't have to be based on your sex. It really shouldn't. So that's really helped. People impact assessments are crucial. We again build that into every phase. But the one thing that I do want to touch on that I think has by far made the biggest difference for us is establishing something called a shadow board. Now the shadow board is a group of people from a range of backgrounds, many of whom have lived experience of being underrepresented in the service in some way, and they shadow our executive board. So whenever I get papers that come through for sign off, for decision-making, for discussion in our executive board, which is the top tier of decision-making in our service, they see the papers first. They meet, they discuss it, they comment on it, and then they come to our meeting and they feed back. And the reason this is important is when I'm sat there as the chief and I'm making decisions that will affect the organization, I'm focusing on where the pebble lands that you're throwing into a pond, right? And the first couple of ripples probably. But what the shadow board sees are the ripples that I don't necessarily see. You know, they're looking at all of those things and actually they're feeding things in that are really helpful for us, a perspective that we might not have considered. And we've changed decisions on the basis of the feedback that we've had from them. And it's a really great way, I think, to engage a broader range of people in the decisions that are going to affect the direction of our public service. It's been really helpful.

[9:23] Michael Morgan: That's fantastic. I can understand your sense of frustration Tuesday afternoon. Tuesday afternoon was the second roundtable. We held one in New York when we went to visit the United Nations with the Commission on the Status of Women. And so we were there, we met with our American counterparts. And so we agreed to a second roundtable, which was Tuesday. So there was a lot of really unpacking where we were. We had representatives from the UK, a couple of chiefs from the UK. And so really, I can see we're saying that last part was really about, okay, what are the actions? What are we going to take forward now? What we had taken out of New York was that we would come back to Australia the Champions of Change and AFAC. We're closer together and I'm championing the gender specific PPE PPC. So how can we get that better? So we've set some pretty ambitious targets around that and it fits in exactly with what you're saying. So that really is the life cycle of the PPE from procurement from trials. I've previously had our female firefighter cohort involved in the selection process in the PPE evaluation. We have to have them as part of the trials and so that fits in what you're saying and so I think yes I can sense that level of frustration about Tuesday but we've agreed to another one. So it's really about we all have similar issues around the world around fitment of PPE. Interestingly I asked a person next to me who's an expert in PPE, I said how many manufacturers, serious manufacturers are there in the world and we think it's in the dozens and so we're dealing with a dozen individual companies that manufacture, why do we not have greater influence? There are thousands of fire services, fire brigades and emergency services organisations around the world. So getting together and being part of this will create that opportunity for us to have a stronger voice. Rather than being an individual fire service, it's going to a manufacturer and saying, or doing your tendering process. And that was the other thing. We really have to understand what we're tendering for. What are we asking? Do they understand? They'll deliver whatever we want, but does it fit every aspect that we want? Can we then criticise the manufacturers if we don't get what we want in the end? So that's part of the ongoing work through Champions of Change and through AFAC that we're doing.

[11:32] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: I mean, it's a really good point. I'm a really big fan of designing out issues wherever you can. So that interface with fire industry associations, I think is so important. Are we kind of just broadening that out? I think there are things that you can do to design out problems that impact from an equality perspective in everything that we do in fire. And I'll give you an example. We just built a new training centre in my fire service in West Sussex Fire and Rescue Service. And one of the problems that we always have is with our changing rooms, we've got our locker rooms, and the locker room is supposed to be the locker room and then people are supposed to go in a changing room and get changed, right. But when you're in a workplace where the vast majority of people are male, and you may or may not have a woman that comes into that environment on a given day, human nature is, do you know what, it's just easier if I get changed at my locker. Some people do. I cannot tell you the amount of times I have seen more of my colleagues than I have ever wished to. It's embarrassing for me. It's embarrassing for them. Nobody wants to do it. They're all apologetic. And you know, they haven't gone in intentionally to kind of flout the rules, but it's human nature, it's quicker, you get lazy and it happens. So when we built our training center and our new fire stations, now we build a glass wall in the locker room. So no one's going to get changed in front of a glass wall where people are walking past in the corridor, they're going to go, I'm going to take my stuff and I'm going to go and get changed in the private area where I'm supposed to. So you know, there are ways that you can design out problems, whether they're directly related to an EDI issue or whether they're culturally related to an EDI issue, there are ways.

[13:08] Michael Morgan: I think that's really good because it's not necessarily about gender either, it's around privacy. And changing generations, there's an expectation around dignity, privacy, older generations just didn't experience because we didn't speak up about it. But there's an expectation now it's around privacy. So you can't just cloud everything with this is around gender and diversity. It's around dignity, privacy. It's about everyone feeling welcome and safe. And there are people who just don't want to get undressed in front of other people. And it's and it's everyone has that right.

[13:37] Kevin Sofen: term that you talked about, the whole idea of designing out problems, I'd love to expand on that. What other projects are you, what we're working on now or initiatives or case studies you can reference that this idea of designing out problems that have been just entrenched into aspects of the fire service?

[13:54] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: I think it's a really good point and I think that you know I've touched on some of the things that we've done around work wear and around our fire stations. One of the things in particular that we're looking at now is designing out problems that are associated with contaminants in particular. So this is a really important subject. And I think for a really long time, we have not given the kind of credence that we need to around contaminants and the impact on health. So now we've developed, we call it an orange guide. So it's like a specification that we want every one of our fire stations to adhere to. And it completely separates out your dirty areas and your clean areas. It's the same in our training centre. colour coded so you know at a glance where you can go with your fire kit, where you have to take it off, which areas are a no-go when you have contaminants. But look, anything like that takes money. I don't know what the situation is in Australia, but it's getting more and more difficult to get funding in the UK. We're finding our budgets being constrained because of the impact on public sector budgets. And so that is a challenge and will remain a challenge moving forward. But the desire and the recognition for what needs to be done is absolutely there. We've just got to make sure that we can pay for it.

[15:06] Michael Morgan: So much of it is retrofitting older stations. So historically we have stations that are very, some very old and I've visited a number of UK stations. Those new stations where you get the opportunity to design, to build a lot of that out. We're looking at, you don't get in the appliance, you do not get back in your fire truck with contaminated clothing. So the process starts at the fire ground, you start to decontaminate or remove your contaminated clothing. And it's It's about that awareness, a suitable laundering of PPE, ensuring that you have adequate PPE to rotate to ensure that gets laundered, because we know that you bring your gear back, you hang it up, then it's off-gassing. So we've got to eliminate that from ... So design and innovation is around moving PPE from engine rooms. When I first started all the PPE hung in the engine rooms, you start the diesel truck up. The diesel particulates are covering your PPE before you've even gone to a job. extraction, designs of station, extraction systems out of stations, pressurised areas. So they're all innovation. If we look at PPE, you know, even some, you know, simplest design of PPE is pretty difficult to wear. Even the last uniform that I've tended for, we had what they call the raglan sleeve. So the sleeves already cut into a design like that. So any movement. So, but sizing, and this is why I get back to the manufacturers, we need to tender and say if you want to be successful in your tender be innovative. We want the full sizing chart. We don't just want like your boots for example. Here's a men's six, wear two pairs of socks. So we have that design and innovation we have to be demanding that. So we have to when we go out to tender for anything we have to do that. Station design is the stations have changed incredibly. I look at my first stations we used to take the exhaust of the fire truck used to go into the station because that's where the door was. So, you know, little things like that. PPE, my first PPE, my jacket was a woolen coat. I had a normal woolen pants and a pair of rubber boots with a steel cap compared to the PPE that we wear today and the helmets and everything. So, but we have to, yeah, we have to be demanding and we have to be pushing it to get those changes.

[17:12] Kevin Sofen: Well, something you would mention, and I think we can all agree on, it's like we often tile this as a gender conversation, but it's really not. It's about safety, it's about privacy, it's about dignity. And again, just acknowledging, yes, it's 2024, we can say we want and look at that stuff in the past, but sort of just continue to take this zero tolerance BS to stuff that was accepted in the past and continuing to ensure safety, privacy, dignity, and to focus on what is actually really important, which is continue to make sure that health and wellness prioritize, making sure that saving property, saving lives, continuing to be good stewards of the community. And I feel and see that momentum, especially with Dr. Laurie's One Voice mission and to bring in some of the work that you continue to pioneer. I feel it, I see it, and I think I'm kind of also now continuing to, interested in both of your thoughts on like your hope and I guess like, do you remain that hope in like a positive outlook in terms of where we see the fire service going and what's your outlook for the near and long term?

[18:16] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: Absolutely, and do you know what? I feel like things have changed so much, certainly in the 23 years worth of service that I've had. And I think one of the biggest things is, and I touched on it earlier on in my session, is a sense of psychological safety. So I did a lot of work within my service to try to develop a sense of psychological safety with people, because psychological safety, it's not just going to work and being happy, right? That'd be a lovely by-product, But real psychological safety means that you can go into work and have a difficult conversation. It means that you're not afraid to fail at something because you know that the world isn't going to fall down. You know that it's going to be depersonalised. So if you make a mistake, you can talk about it. And that means you can find the root cause of the mistake, whether it's systemic or whether it's developmental, whatever, but you can do something about it. I think for so long in the fire service, we've had a culture where you can't make a mistake. you can't make an error. You can't give any sense of vulnerability because it will mean that you're exposed. That is the antithesis of what we should be doing because you don't get a high performing team that way. You can't bring your whole self into work. If you're so afraid of showing any kind of vulnerability, you don't do things that are difficult because you might fail. That means you're not going to innovate because taking a risk is too risky. Really creating that sense of psychological safety is super important, not just culturally, but from a performance perspective, whether it's a performance operationally as a team or whether it's our progress as a fire and rescue service pushing the boundaries, doing things differently, really innovating. And I'm really seeing the seeds of change now with that. And I mean, look, that's really important from a mental health perspective as well, right? We know from There's some great research that was done in the UK. Oh, hi, we're being photographed. Hey, that's good.

[20:06] Kevin Sofen: Perfect. Impromptu.

[20:07] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: Yeah. There's been some really great work done in the UK by a charity called Mind that recognized that people in the emergency services on the frontline are disproportionately more likely to suffer with their mental health than the general population, but we're also less likely to ask for help. And there are a few reasons for that. You think about what we do, being a firefighter becomes an enormous part of how you see yourself is part of your identity. So you see yourself as a protector and the idea then that something might challenge you or that you might be the one that needs help, that can be really difficult because it goes against your idea of who you are. But if you have that sense of psychological safety, not only are you breaking down those previous stigmas around mental health, but it also means that you're prepared to have those authentic conversations and say that you might be struggling with something or that you can't make sense of something. And again, that's a safety issue. That's really important to do. So I do see those seeds of change. I see it breaking down stigmas. I see it breaking down stereotypes and I see it building a sense of psychological safety that will help us to innovate and I'm looking forward to seeing what the next five and 10 years will look like. So I think it'll be even better.

[21:18] Michael Morgan: It's fantastic. Look, I think culture, and again, I've spoken a number of times around and masculinity. So we've come through this workforce where we're predominantly males and then there is that level of masculinity you can't show weakness. But we're seeing a change, we're generational change, but it gets back to we are underrepresented in our diverse workforce. There's just no way around it. We are underrepresented. So we have to do more of that. But to do so, we have to ensure that we're providing this psychological safety. We're ensuring that people come in and fit. We bring them in and include them in everything. So I think absolutely spot on. I think that psychological safety about being vulnerable, we will jump into a fire appliance or a race off and do the most frightening things potentially to save someone we've never met. We don't know, wouldn't know their background, yet we're prepared to do that. We'll get back to the station and we don't apply those same principles of really just caring and looking out for everyone. I think it's really key, but that the diversity of our workforce will increase that. The expectations of our future generations of firefighters and emergency services workers will demand it. So whereas it will be demanded, we will need to meet it, but getting our increase in our gender, our diversity, but if we're a non-inclusive place to work for and a place where you feel safe, we will always struggle.

[22:40] Kevin Sofen: And I know we're running a little bit over time, but I would be remiss not to at least bring up the word, hyphen in it, I guess, decision-making, and especially, you know, how psychological safety goes into decision-making, how, again, the whole book you wrote on heat of the moment in terms of how we make decisions and all these factors that go into why we make decisions, how we make decisions, when we make decisions, all these are factors. You know, your presentation that you gave, could you give us give me a high level, you know, one minute SparkNotes on like, what is the presentation and some of your research that you're doing within decision-making?

[23:12] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: Absolutely. So I have a professorship at Cardiff University, I co-supervise a small research group on top of my day job in the fire service, looking at how we make decisions under pressure, essentially, especially the really high risk kind of decisions that we experience in the fire service. And since 2010, we've been looking at what that means in our environment and how we can develop techniques that help firefighters to make better decisions in those kinds of areas. But I'm going to touch on something that I think has been a theme today, and that's the impact of the culture that you're embedded in when you are making those decisions. I can talk for hours on how your brain works and the neuroscience of it, and what's going on when you're in that situation. But I think the bit that we don't talk about enough is the impact of how you expect people to respond to that decision on the decision that you're making. We did a lot of work around something called operational discretion, which we introduced as part of the team that rewrote our incident commands national policy. We introduced the concept of operational discretion, which recognizes that you don't always have the right policy for the situation. And even if you do, applying it directly by the letter of the policy in that situation might mean that it ends up worse than it would have been if you did something different. So this is essentially legitimizing in certain circumstances, the requirements to apply your professional judgment, because the policy just won't fit. And so that was a really big step for us in the service. But actually what we found is the thing that was putting people off was the culture, because people were worried that if they did make a decision that wasn't already built in a policy, which was like a comfort blanket, then they wouldn't be supported or they'd get into trouble. Or if it was the right decision but it still had a terrible outcome, because that happens by the way. Sometimes you're looking for the least worst option because there is no good outcome. People were worried that they would end up in a disciplinary or that they would be criticised or the response from their peers. So that sense of culture, the way that you expect people to respond, that sense of psychological safety, it has an absolutely hard core importance for making good operational decisions on the fire ground.

[25:22] Michael Morgan: Fantastic. Yeah, really well said. And we often don't understand how that decision's mate because we don't have that perspective, but we have to have, we have to put trust and faith into our staff and officers to make decisions. The CUBE Commissioner and I were walking along the other night, we were trying to decide on where we were going to eat. And we both laughed and said, if we were at an incident now and we had to make a decision on what we're going to do, we would have made that decision 10 times over. And we're walking on the street looking where we're going to eat. So we thought, well, we're not in, we weren't in response, but isn't it incredible that you can make a hundred different decisions so quickly and really know that, okay, I've done this before. I've experienced before this, what I did, this was the outcome, but yet you're walking on and get, I don't know, you never lived that down in the fire service, one bad meal and that's it forever.

[26:13] Kevin Sofen: Oh, that's reminding me actually today. I was supposed to get some Vegemite at the fire station, but it was one thing that I didn't do. I had the fortune of riding on the fire truck today. So one of the couple calls and just kind of being behind the scenes, but I guess I made up for the lack of Vegemite with Tim Tams here today instead.

[26:28] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: I'm going to be controversial. I think Vegemite's gross.

[26:33] Kevin Sofen: Michael, your response?

[26:35] Michael Morgan: It's an acquired taste, I must admit.

[26:37] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: I love it.

[26:38] Michael Morgan: But K version, it's Marmite.

[26:42] Kevin Sofen: You just got to keep trying it.

[26:43] Michael Morgan: Yeah, Marmite.

[26:44] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: What I would imagine feet taste like. It smells like feet.

[26:47] Kevin Sofen: Smells like feet. Yeah.

[26:52] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: Why would you put that on your toast? I put Tabasco sauce on toast.

[26:56] Kevin Sofen: Oh, I like it.

[26:57] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: Yeah, that's really good.

[26:57] Kevin Sofen: A little Sriracha, a little Tabasco. Yeah.

[27:00] Michael Morgan: Oh dear.

[27:00] Kevin Sofen: Okay. Maybe put it on the Tim Tam. Who knows? I'll do it.

[27:03] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: Shush.

[27:04] Kevin Sofen: Yeah. All right. Well, two final things quick. And I think we are slowly being forced out of here, but one, the Institute of Fire Engineers, what is it in your words, you know, why is it a relevant institution in the global fire service?

[27:15] Michael Morgan: Oh, look, I think from my perspective, coming through the fire service and IFE has been around for a long time and it was a great way of people developing themselves as individuals, but then the benefit to the fire services. And then as I've gone through leadership, really encouraged people to be members and work with IFE because there's a benefit. I spoke a couple of years ago at a conference about connecting between the fire services and the industry, so having a better understanding from each perspective about how important that is.

[27:46] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: I think all of those things are absolutely right. And there's something about the professionalism that comes with the IFE and the consistency with the, from the qualifications perspective, et cetera, that you get. But I think by far the biggest benefit that the IFE brings is that development of thought. It's the network that comes with it. So constant discussion, the progression of ideas that comes through that network. I think it's, it's second to none in the fire industry.

[28:11] Kevin Sofen: Love it. And final question for both of you, a favorite quote or a word of wisdom that you both live by within your personal life or within your professional career?

[28:21] Michael Morgan: I think it's having a sense of purpose as an individual. I think identifying and understanding what your purpose is in life, I think, is probably the key thing for me. Just, and I've been reflecting on it just recently, listening to some podcasts and then challenging my own. So what is my purpose? And it's really about bringing joy and making people feel safe, which I guess links into a career that I've chosen. So, yeah.

[28:43] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: So mine is a bit more random. Yeah, if your dog doesn't like them, they're probably right. Oh, put that on my tombstone.

[28:52] Kevin Sofen: It's true.

[28:54] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: If your dog doesn't like them, they're probably right.

[28:57] Michael Morgan: Well, that's actually, that's deep.

[28:58] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: I really trust my dog. So I'm going to try really tenuously bring it back to a professional.

[29:04] Kevin Sofen: No, that's true.

[29:05] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: I use my dog's judgment more than my own.

[29:07] Kevin Sofen: My wife and I have been talking about how my dog Aspen, she's a little staffy pity, how she's particular. She loves some people, but she's a little bit standoffish with a few others, and now that I think about those people it kind of adds up.

[29:20] Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton: Yeah, I actually just introduced well-being dogs into my service. So there is a tiny whistling there, but to be fair, the well-being dogs are amazing and they just love everybody.

[29:30] Kevin Sofen: So you get a free pass with a well-being dog.

[29:32] Michael Morgan: Yeah, and they are so incredible. We had one walking around yesterday, and the Wilcom People's Basis. Yeah, there is a dog. again it's like there's a golden retriever somewhere. And one was from our fire service and so she was sitting next to me and at first just sort of nuzzled back and I thought I'll let her just nuzzle. So then I thought okay so I had a little connection and then I felt the push back and I thought oh yeah we've connected the car. It's the best. It just pushed back into my leg. Dogs are the best. You see the reaction of people walking around the hall and as soon as they see them, and you can see them lift, so yeah.

[30:04] Kevin Sofen: Lovely. Well, Michael and Sabrina, what a treat it was to talk shop today. Sabrina, good to see you again and look forward to continuing to cross paths and then see what you're both up to in the whole thing's fire service.

[30:14] Michael Morgan: Yeah, thank you. It's lovely. Thank you. Thank you. Take care. See ya.

[30:19] Kevin Sofen: Thanks for listening to this episode recorded alongside the Institute of Fire Engineers during the AFAC Show. If you found value in the conversation or learn something new, we'd love to hear from you. Reach out, share your thoughts, and let's keep the discussion going on how we can shape the future of smart firefighting.