Episode 265: Making Solar Energy Safe for First Responders with Jim Foran

Episode notes

How is PVStop training first responders and electrical technicians to safely handle solar panels?

Hello Smart Firefighting Community!

Welcome to another episode of covering real world innovations via interviews with fire service and technology industry experts that empower YOU to develop your very own Smart Firefighting strategy!

In this episode:

A liquid blanket that de-energizes solar panels, making them safe for emergency response

PVStop’s new drone delivery system for high-rise and difficult-to-access solar installations

The potential for collaboration with insurers to enhance solar safety measures

Hear from Jim Foran - the Director at PVStop International Pty Ltd .

Jim shares their innovative approach to making solar energy safe for firefighters and first responders. Their flagship product, PVStop, acts as a liquid blanket that can be sprayed onto solar panels, blocking light and de-energizing the panels to create a safe working environment during emergencies. They introduce their new drone delivery system, designed to spray the coating on solar panels in hard-to-reach areas like high-rises.

The discussion also covers PVStop's commitment to providing training and education tools for first responders and electrical technicians, ensuring safe practices around solar installations. Additionally, they are exploring partnerships with early detection companies to prevent electrical incidents from escalating into fires.

So take a listen to hear what he has to share!

Episode Resources:

AFAC25 Conference

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Chapters

1. 0:00 Intro from the IFE booth at AFAC 2024
2. 0:47 Jim Foran joins
3. 1:24 PVStop's new drone delivery system
4. 2:00 Who is Jim and what is PVStop
5. 3:40 Why partial coverage de-energizes a panel
6. 5:49 Why a drone, and where it fits
7. 7:30 Building integrated photovoltaics and electrified cladding
8. 9:56 Training and e-learning for first responders
9. 13:12 The rugby game and other tech at AFAC
10. 14:24 Should solar owners share the responsibility
11. 16:33 Early detection before arcs become fires
12. 19:20 What the IFE means to Jim
13. 21:01 Final message: bring the insurers in
14. 23:08 Wrap

Questions answered in this episode

What is PVStop and how does it work?

Jim Foran describes PVStop as a liquid blanket for solar panels that blocks light and de-energizes the panels at the source. When sprayed onto solar panels, it immediately stops them from producing electricity, allowing first responders to safely work on saving property and lives. A 40% strip of coating across the center of the array breaks the circuit, removing amperage so there is no power output even if some voltage remains.

Hear it at 2:07

Why can't firefighters simply turn off solar panels like regular electricity?

Jim Foran explains that as long as it is daylight, solar panels continuously produce potentially lethal amounts of DC electricity. The only way to switch solar off at the source is to either switch off the sun or block the light. This forces first responders to treat solar incidents defensively, often overseeing a controlled burn rather than actively fighting the fire.

Hear it at 2:07

What is the new drone delivery system for PVStop?

Jim Foran says PVStop is launching a new drone delivery system with a 50 kilogram payload capacity that can carry about 50 liters of product. The drone can fly across solar panels and spray the coating similar to crop dusting, making it useful for high-rise buildings, solar farms, and difficult-to-access installations without putting humans at risk.

Hear it at 1:24

What is BIPV and why is it a concern for firefighters?

Jim Foran describes BIPV, Building Integrated Photovoltaics, as commercial building cladding that is made of solar panels, meaning entire sides of buildings will be energized. He says existing standards around cladding systems only address fire risk, not electrical risk, so first responders could face damaged, electrified cladding on high-rise structure fires. It is a new risk no one has really thought through.

Hear it at 7:06

What training does PVStop offer for first responders?

Jim Foran says PVStop has developed an online e-learning program made up of 10 modules, each a video between two and a half and four minutes. The entire course takes less than 60 minutes, with most people completing it comfortably in an hour and a half. It includes questions to test knowledge, and at the end first responders receive a certificate as an authorized PV and solar safety operator.

Hear it at 11:55

Transcript

Machine transcript of the published audio. Names may be misspelled and some sections are missing.

Ep 265 transcript

Making Solar Energy Safe for First Responders with Jim Foran

Speakers: Kevin Sofen, Jim Foran

Source: Whisper medium.en machine transcription of the published Podbean audio (no original transcript found in Drive), lightly cleaned. Speakers were separated by voice clustering and then checked and assigned by hand at every speaker change. Gaps where the model returned no usable text are marked [inaudible m:ss].

[0:00] Kevin Sofen: Welcome to a mini Smart Firefighting podcast series, recorded live at the Institute of Fire Engineers booth during the 2024 AFAC Show Down Under in Sydney, Australia. Throughout these conversations, we dive into critical issues like fire safety, emerging technologies, diversity in the fire service, and innovative solutions for emergency response. fascinating insights from leaders around the world on how we can build a safer and more resilient future. Jim Foran, director of PVStop, shares how PVStop de-energizes solar panels during emergencies, making them safer for first responders. He discusses their new drone delivery system for hard-to-reach installations and the importance of training first responders in solar safety. Second pod here at AFAC sitting alongside Jim Foran with PVStop. Jim, how you doing?

[0:55] Jim Foran: I'm not too bad for a, what are we, Wednesday morning. I have lost track.

[0:59] Kevin Sofen: Well technically it's Tuesday afternoon where I normally am but I guess I'm in the future so it feels pretty good.

[1:06] Jim Foran: Yeah, time traveler.

[1:07] Kevin Sofen: It really feels great. Yeah straight back to the future. I assume we got, there's no Cybertruck here so I'm a little disappointed so we'll just have to use whatever the other little Tesla truck they have.

[1:18] Jim Foran: Yeah. No DeLoreans around anywhere.

[1:21] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, I know. So how is AFAC treating you, what's going on?

[1:24] Jim Foran: Yeah, so AFAC's good. I'm here with our Australian distributor, Fire Rescue Safety Australia, over on their stand and they've got a range of great equipment and exciting for us. Our traditional delivery method for our product PVStop is a portable pressure vessel, similar to a fire extinguisher. But this year we're launching our new drone delivery system. So we've got the new drone on the stand over there and it's a bit of a monster. It's got a 50 kilo payload capacity. So it's a big bird and it's attracting a lot of attention. So yeah, having a lot of really good conversations.

[2:00] Kevin Sofen: How, and I guess maybe even take a step back of who is Jim and what is PVStop? Give me that high level really quick.

[2:07] Jim Foran: Sure. So Jim Foran, I'm the co-founder and CEO of PVStop and our mission is to make solar energy safe. So, if you can imagine from a firefighter or first responder perspective, when they turn up to an incident, the first protocol is to save saveable life. If there's no risk to life, make safe. So everyone knows firefighters will isolate the power at the switchboard, cut the gas lines, then they can safely go about doing their job proactively. But at an incident where solar panels are featured, as long as it's daylight, those solar panels are continually producing potentially lethal amounts of DC electricity, which forces first responders to treat it defensively. Which means, you know, don't put your life at risk, defend the perimeter and oversee a controlled burn, which is a situation most people don't understand. So yeah, our product, PVStop, it's like a liquid blanket for solar panels. The only way to switch solar off at the source is to either switch off the sun or block the light. So PVStop sprays onto solar panels like a liquid blanket or liquid tarpaulin and immediately blocks the light and de-energises those panels at the source of power production, allowing first responders to then quickly, safely get on with saving the property, saving lives, and protecting the communities they serve.

[3:40] Kevin Sofen: And I remember one, initially, when I saw the product thinking, okay, well, you gotta you gotta spray this stuff all over the solar panel and you have to cover it completely. And then I was actually wrong in that assumption where you actually only have to cover a certain portion of it because you're ultimately disrupting the energy chain or tell me, explain that a bit more for people listening.

[4:00] Jim Foran: So, if you can imagine looking at the solar panel, it's made up of a number of solar cells. You typically in a panel there's either 60 cell panels or 72 cell panels. Now they're all wired together in series to create a panel and then those panels are daisy chained together to create a string. So if you get a 40% strip of coating across the centre of the array, you're breaking the circuit, you're interrupting the circuit. So you will still have residual voltage in those cells still receiving light, but you'll have no amperage. So taking that back a step, basic Ohm's Law theory, volts times amps equals watts and watts is the power output. So remove either volts or amps and you have no power. So even that 40% coverage across the center of the array, you might still have 80 or 100 volts of electricity, but you've got no amps. So 100 times zero equals zero output.

[5:10] Kevin Sofen: A squared times B squared equals C squared. Okay, I got it.

[5:12] Jim Foran: Yeah, exactly. There you go. And that's as far as I'm going on the maths list.

[5:15] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, I was glad that there's people in the world that like you that understand those things. My youngest brother, Declan, is just like an energy wizard and perfect test scores and stuff. and I'm like, I can barely, you know, spell my first name, you know, I can barely speak English correctly. So, well, awesome to hear and learn more about, again, the true nuances of PVStop, and then you had mentioned it's, and I've seen and heard certain departments, if it can be mentioned in America, using it for that application of responding to a fire, being able to go up and ultimately spray it on the solar panel to deactivate it so it's not generating power. But now you mentioned earlier this idea of the drone, being able to deploy it in areas where maybe a human can get immediately. Tell me more about ultimately why that's relevant, how it can be used, and in sort of some use cases of how it can really be a game changer.

[6:05] Jim Foran: Sure, well, the drone came about by listening to our customers, and we had the portable pressure vessels, which are a very pragmatic solution. They're in a fire extinguisher canister, so they fit on existing brackets on existing vehicles, so it's a path of least resistance, very easy to use. However, we were getting feedback from the market that for high rise, for dangerous to access, for difficult to access, the cylinders, the portable pressure vessels weren't always the right option. So, you know, what can we do? And that's where the idea of the drone came from. So literally the drone can carry quite a significant payload. As I said before, about 50 liters, which, what's that in gallons? 10 gallons?

[6:51] Kevin Sofen: Honestly, I've been struggling here, everyone's like kilometers, Celsius, I was like, I'm just a stupid American, barely to speak, their only metric system that we use, so.

[6:59] Jim Foran: Yeah, so apologies for our imperial friends out there, I'm more of a metric guy.

[7:04] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, appreciate it.

[7:06] Jim Foran: So yeah, essentially, the drone can take off, you're not putting humans at risk, and it can fly across the solar panels, and similar to crop dusting, it's spraying the coating onto the panels, once again to de-energise quickly and safely. So for high-rise solar farm scale incidents, it's a very quick, effective option. The other really big emerging risk that I'm seeing on the horizon is, I talk about solar panels, they're known as photovoltaic or PV, which is where PVStop comes from. There's a new technology coming out called BIPV, Building Integrated Photovoltaics. So if you can imagine, traditionally, solar panels sit on the roof, you can have solar tiles, but the latest innovation is like cladding. So commercial building cladding, that is solar panels. So effectively, the entire sides of commercial buildings in the future will be energised.

[8:11] Kevin Sofen: Is this one of those things that sounds great, but then all of a sudden once it gets on fire, we have a real problem?

[8:16] Jim Foran: Absolutely. So the challenge is, at the moment, the standards and legislation around cladding systems are all based on the fire risk. Now, fire risk is one thing, but none of the existing standards or legislation take into account the electrical risk. So if you can imagine from a first responder perspective, you turn up to a commercial high rise structure fire, the cladding may be alight. Now that cladding might not just be alight, the entire side of that wall might be damaged, electrified cladding. So it's a whole new risk that no one has really thought through. Once again, great technology, it's going to create clean energy, help the environment, help people to be more productive. But it's these unforeseen safety consequences. And unfortunately, it's the first responders who end up confronting that.

[9:12] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, they're usually there holding the bag, needing to figure it out, and oftentimes risk their life to go. And there's this constant evolution of new ways to manufacture stuff for buildings, or lithium ion cars, all these things that bring great conveniences and luxuries to human life. but we oftentimes forget what happens when something goes wrong.

[9:36] Jim Foran: Yeah. And that's what we believe our mission is to try and look at the long-term horizon, identify these risks, and create training education tools that our first responders can have in the bag so they are proactively prepared for these emerging risks and emerging technologies.

[9:56] Kevin Sofen: You just mentioned training education tools. Double-click into that a bit more, it's a bit more. about what you're working on with?

[10:01] Jim Foran: So one of the other things when we first released the PVStop pressure vessels, great product, simple to use, product simple, the environment in which we operate is complex. So although we've got a simple solution to a problem, the surrounding issues are complicated. So when you're responding to solar panels, what does the risk assessment look like? What is the fundamental information the first responder needs to know to operate safely? and first responders can't be experts in everything, you know. I consider them the ultimate generalists and the ultimate problem solvers. There's literally hundreds if not thousands of scenarios they need to respond to and be able to save life, keep themselves safe, their team safe and communities safe. They can't be expected to be experts in everything, it's just not humanly possible. So we're finding the product works but the gap was the training and the education for first responders. So, once again, listening to feedback from the customers, we have designed and developed an online e-learning program for first responders and electrical technicians, giving them the fundamental information they need, not just to operate and apply PVStop, but how to operate safely around solar, especially in non-standard emergency response environments.

[11:26] Kevin Sofen: That's great. Yeah, I mean it seems like it's, whether we like it or not, mostly yes it's for the better, but the combination of batteries and solar are becoming interwoven into everything we do.

[11:39] Jim Foran: Yes.

[11:39] Kevin Sofen: And so you're kind of leaning into how do you continue to educate on different types, different applications, different before, during, after disasters, and are these videos and like infographics, like podcasts, like what's in this portal?

[11:55] Jim Foran: So basically, the information is available on our website about the e-learning, but it's made up of 10 modules. Each module is a video of around anywhere between two and a half and four minutes. So it's broken up into micro learning packages. So we understand also first responders, time is precious, they don't want to be bogged down for hours in front of laptops, going through dry education. So it's small bite-size bits of really essential information that they can come and do a bit of the course. If they need to get called away, can go away, come back and through the course, there's a couple of Q&A sections just to test that they are absorbing the knowledge that they're watching. So overall, the whole course is less than 60 minutes from start to finish, along with some questions. Most people can do it comfortably. in an hour and a half total, which can be broken up any way they want. At the end of that, Prince Office certificate saying they're now an authorized PV and solar safety operator, which is just a, once again, cost effective method for agencies to not only adopt our solutions, but the training to support their personnel and using it in the field.

[13:12] Kevin Sofen: I love that, Jim. And it's continued your own selflessness and insight as a, as a founder of knowing that your technology is a piece of the puzzle, there's so much that goes into the overall ecosystem of all this, but then even more than that, there's, I found it interesting when we were, chopping it up at the rugby game the other day, which still I'm like reeling in terms of how much fun and how epic it was from, gosh, the grappling guys coming from the roof, the police helicopter delivering the game ball to the fake police use of force with the dog, getting the guy to just an epic league rugby game back and forth. You know, we could, we could, you know, pivot podcast completely. What a great experience that was. But talking about just the ways that you're integrating with other aspects of other technologies, you know, from there's, you know, here at AFAC, you look around like it's a lot of technologies you're looking right there. You see a company Fire Mapper, and there's a data and they're seeing a lot of these different companies that are using data to kind of understand Where's the risk? How big is the risk? How are we using satellites now for forecasting? All this kind of stuff, but you had mentioned some stuff around integrating with some of these other groups around early detection. Tell me more about that.

[14:26] Jim Foran: So once again, listening to customer feedback, when we're rolling out our product into fire departments around the world, we usually find once they've adopted the technology and they're making their members safe, the question starts to arise. rise, why is all the onus on fire departments and first responders to make solar safe? Shouldn't some of this responsibility sit on the shoulders of the PV system owners? And I couldn't agree more. If you're installing a technology, you should be thinking about the consequences of that technology and have plans in place if something goes wrong. It shouldn't just sit on the shoulders of the fire departments and emergency services agencies. So when you look at those large, residential is one thing, but when you look at those large commercial PV systems that are now on the roof of most big box structures, whether it be data centres or major DCs, they are big systems and some of the responsibility for the safety of that should sit on the shoulders of the owners. And I'm seeing the more responsible all big multinational companies are taking these risks seriously. The insurance industry is taking it seriously now. Some of the more responsible owners are taking it seriously and starting to put plans in place to mitigate potential rooftop risks. So we're starting to sell the product, both the pressure vessels and the drones into the commercial sector so they can proactively have solutions in place and plans in place they can share with the local fire departments so you've closed the loop on that kind of 360 degree community safety inputs. But one thing, no technology is perfect, ours included. PVStop is most effective when you can use it and intervene as early as possible. So the earlier you can apply it, the less damage there's going to be. Now the problem with these big commercial rooftops is they're high up, out of sight, out of mind. When solar panels do start to develop hot spots, those hot spots can then develop into electrical arcs and then eventually those arcs then become fires. Now a lot of those arc events can be hissing and fizzing away for, it can be hours if not sometimes days before it evolves into a fire. Now imagine if we had some sort of early detection system so that as soon as those arcs or smoking or arcing develops you can alert someone, they can then go and apply our solution and you're preventing an electrical incident turning into a fire. You're going to reduce the number of fires, you're going to reduce the work load on first responders, and you're going to mitigate that what I'd call business continuance risk. So what's the cost to a huge data center if that place is out of commission for a week or it burns to the ground and it's 12 months before? The costs are astronomical. With early detection, which is cost effective, with our solution, which is cost effective as a combination, you could prevent some of those significant number of those fires from happening in the first place. And that's the goal. We're teaming up with some of the early detection type companies around the world. There's linear heat detection. There's a number of companies doing those linear heat detection solutions. There are now some really interesting companies who are coming up with multifaceted detection which involves CCTV cameras, smoke detection, infrared detection, all combined and overseered by AI. So obviously you can't have a human just staring at a CCTV camera week in, week out, on a roof that's doing nothing. AI can do that and if something abnormal happens, whether that be smoke, heat, it can alert appropriate people, and then we can intervene early, and once again, prevent electrical incidents becoming fire incidents.

[18:54] Kevin Sofen: Well said, and I'm exciting to think about how you're leveraging and tying into this other early detection conversation, and we're talking about that amongst some of the other IFE colleagues here, and maybe think about how you have this response tool that first responders can use to address this challenge and the wonders, but also challenges of solar panels, and we're here with the, you know, I've got the Institute of Fire Engineers banner above our head right here.

[19:20] Jim Foran: Yep, hey.

[19:21] Kevin Sofen: What is IFE to you and how is IFE like a community organization or institution that's ultimately been something that you work with and you know, how, what's your hot take on all things IFE?

[19:32] Jim Foran: Yep. Well, I've got a very soft spot for the IFE and PVStop are an affiliate company of the IFE. Back when we first introduced our technology And I was very much still wet behind the ears in this industry. It was the IFE, the engineers that could see the potential in our solution and really took me under their wing, started introducing me to the... to the right network of people to raise awareness around our solutions and help, really helped catapult PVStop around the world. So from those humble beginnings back in 2015, I've always remembered the support they gave me early on when everyone thought we were just crazy.

[20:20] Kevin Sofen: Started from the bottom, now we're here.

[20:21] Jim Foran: Yeah. Look where we are today.

[20:23] Kevin Sofen: Yeah. Hey, kudos. Well, yeah, I mean, it's really just been amazing to watch the IFE ecosystem and the role IFE can play within Australia, but also the global fire service.

[20:34] Jim Foran: Around the world, absolutely. They are a global organization of dedicated engineers determined to improve safety around the world. And they're not the largest organization in the world, but they're very mission-driven and I think are boxed well above their weight on the global stage. It's fantastic to be a part of.

[20:55] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, they're like the featherweight boxers going in the heavyweights and holding their own.

[20:59] Jim Foran: Yeah, absolutely.

[21:01] Kevin Sofen: So any sort of final maybe mic drop moment or a quote or a challenge or any sort of final words that you could leave us with here today?

[21:10] Jim Foran: Probably the biggest challenge and the next kind of target on our horizon is the insurance sector. So insurers are very aware of these issues, whether it be solar, battery storage, they've got access to extremely good data, and I'd really like to see the insurers working more closely with the first responder communities and organisations and working with them to once again mitigate these things, be proactive, not reactive. and I suppose that's our next mission as we move into that commercial sector. Commercial sector is driven by profit. Safety is not always the highest priority, although once again the more responsible companies are very much embracing that safety aspect. But I think insurers should be, and FM Global are a great example of technical insurance, aren't looking at structures holistically. If buildings and systems are engineered to maximise safety, that should lead to a discount off the premiums, because as commercial operators, if there's an incentive to install safety, financial incentive, they will, and then everyone We can save lives, we can save properties, we can save communities, we can reduce the impact of environmental damage, et cetera, et cetera. So I'd just really like to see the key stakeholders in both the fire sector, the engineering sector, the insurance sector, government all collaborate more proactively to tackle these new and emerging risks around the world. around the world. There are companies like us that'll go out of our way to assist where we can, but it's a community effort. Everyone needs to be involved.

[23:08] Kevin Sofen: Jim, I really respect and appreciate the entrepreneurial hustle, as well as the altruistic mindset you have of wanting to help the fire industry around the world. So keep up the good work. And it's been really awesome to watch your journey over the years. And I'm excited to see what happens next.

[23:23] Jim Foran: Thank you, mate. I always appreciate the time you take to meet with me and catch up and the interest you take in what we're trying to do. For that, I thank you and I look forward to many more to come.

[23:35] Kevin Sofen: I got you.

[23:36] Jim Foran: Thanks, man.

[23:37] Kevin Sofen: Good stuff.

[23:38] Jim Foran: Thank you.

[23:39] Kevin Sofen: Thanks for listening to this episode recorded alongside the Institute of Fire Engineers during the AFAC Show. If you found value in the conversation or learned something new, we'd love to hear from you. Reach out, share your thoughts, and let's keep the discussion going on how we can shape the future of smart firefighting.