Episode 264: Challenges and Fire Safety Risks Faced by Tunnels with Craig Hiscock

Episode notes

What are the unique challenges that tunnels face in terms of fire safety and ventilation?

Hello Smart Firefighting Community!

Welcome to another episode of covering real world innovations via interviews with fire service and technology industry experts that empower YOU to develop your very own Smart Firefighting strategy!

In this episode:

The impact of training videos as effective tools for educating firefighters

How 3D BIM models and real photographs can create immersive training experiences

Strategies for future-proofing infrastructure to adapt to long-term changes

Hear from Craig Hiscock - the Technical Director of Global Fire Safety at Tactix-Sener Group .

Craig dives into the potential of training videos for firefighters with insights drawn from the creation of a training video for the New Zealand Fire Service. The discussion highlights how combining 3D BIM models with real photographs can transform traditional training into a more immersive experience.

The conversation also explores the unique challenges of fire safety in tunnels, where limited ventilation and airflows influenced by vehicles or trains present complex risks. The episode further examines the importance of future-proofing infrastructure by considering long-term changes like population growth and evolving vehicle types. Emphasis is placed on preserving valuable knowledge for future generations through efforts like those of the Institute of Fire Engineers.

So take a listen to hear what he has to share!

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Chapters

1. 0:00 Intro from the IFE booth at AFAC 2024
2. 1:03 Turning design knowledge into training videos
3. 2:27 How Craig got into tunnel fire safety
4. 3:40 Why tunnels are a unique fire risk
5. 4:31 The New Zealand training video
6. 5:43 How the video has been received
7. 6:24 What future-proofing means
8. 7:01 Building for the next generations
9. 7:56 What the IFE is and why join
10. 9:08 Final message: understand the other person's position
11. 9:50 Tim Tams and wrap

Questions answered in this episode

What are the unique fire safety challenges in tunnels?

Craig Hiscock says enclosed environments increase temperatures and smoke capture. Tunnels are like longitudinal pipes with air flows created by vehicle or train movements that don't normally happen in open or built environments.

Hear it at 4:06

How did Craig Hiscock create training videos for firefighters?

He took design knowledge and converted it into a video for the New Zealand Fire Service. The video trained personnel on asset features, approach routes, equipment locations, and how to use different equipment. It stays in their intranet system so knowledge is not lost when firefighters leave.

Hear it at 1:03

What is future proofing in tunnel infrastructure?

Craig Hiscock says it can mean looking at whether infrastructure will handle higher populations or changes in vehicle types and fuel types. It also means considering how the asset will be operated in 20, 30, or 50 years and whether the chosen systems are right for that time frame.

Hear it at 6:31

What is the design life for tunnels in Australia?

Every tunnel or transport infrastructure project in Australia is built with a 100 year design life, which Craig Hiscock calls a legacy for the next generation and generations after that.

Hear it at 6:31

What does the Institute of Fire Engineers do?

Craig Hiscock describes it as a blending of firefighters and engineers coming together for common benefits. It allows people to encapsulate their knowledge and pass it down to the younger generation coming through.

Hear it at 8:13

Transcript

Machine transcript of the published audio. Names may be misspelled and some sections are missing.

Ep 264 transcript

Challenges and Fire Safety Risks Faced by Tunnels with Craig Hiscock

Speakers: Kevin Sofen, Craig Hiscock

Source: Whisper medium.en machine transcription of the published Podbean audio (no original transcript found in Drive), lightly cleaned. Speakers were separated by voice clustering and then checked and assigned by hand at every speaker change. Gaps where the model returned no usable text are marked [inaudible m:ss].

[0:00] Kevin Sofen: Welcome to a mini Smart Firefighting podcast series, recorded live at the Institute of Fire Engineers booth during the 2024 AFAC Show Down Under in Sydney, Australia. Throughout these conversations, we dive into critical issues like fire safety, emerging technologies, diversity in the fire service, and innovative solutions for emergency response. his fascinating insights from leaders around the world on how we can build a safer and more resilient future. Craig Hiscock, technical director, global fire safety at Oricon, discusses the use of 3D BIM models and real photographs to create immersive firefighting training videos. He also addresses the unique fire safety challenges in tunnels and the importance of future proofing infrastructure for long-term safety. We officially got our new little setup up here where people can hear us on the outside, excellent, talking about God knows what. So now we actually have to talk about fire tech or fire safety I guess.

[1:03] Craig Hiscock: Yeah. So when we were having dinner last night one of the things we came across in the conversation was about training videos and things for firefighters and how we turn design elements into training elements for firefighters and maintenance personnel and things going forward. When I was working in New Zealand a few years ago I did a training video for the New Zealand Fire Service, fantastic tool, they basically took my design knowledge and converted that into a video. That video was then used to train their personnel around that particular asset, it gave them all the features of the asset, where they'd approach from, where they'll find different bits of equipment, how they should use different bits of equipment. And it becomes a legacy tool where it can continue in their intranet system and each time they have a firefighter leave, that knowledge is not lost because the training video is there in the background. With modern technology, we've now moved into a built environment world where everything's being done in 3D BIM, and we have the ability to develop models that can give people 3D aspects of assets as they're being constructed, and then they can use that information to then form training tools, maintenance procedures, they can investigate. One of the things I would like to see is a combination of that BIM environment and actual real photographs as well, so that the guys not only see it from a 3D point of view, they can tap on it, bring it up and show that it's a photograph and they're actually seeing in real time what they would see if they were standing there.

[2:27] Kevin Sofen: Well, and Craig, there's only a hundred things I want to ask you about that. But to take a step back, how did you get sort of involved in being a niche subject matter expert within fire safety and tunnels?

[2:39] Craig Hiscock: I prefer not to call myself an expert.

[2:41] Kevin Sofen: But a practitioner?

[2:42] Craig Hiscock: A practitioner, yeah. Long story, I effectively started as a trade background. So my trade background was installing fire sprinklers and the like. I then had a health scare which made me think that I needed to use my brain more than my brawn and went and did an engineering degree and started with ARUP and my first job was working on a tunnel. That job didn't eventuate so I moved on and worked for the Queensland Fire and Rescue Service in their major infrastructure division for about 18 months and then I moved back into consultancy mainly because I didn't like identifying things that weren't right and then not being able to be part of the solution. I like fixing problems rather than finding problems. I thought you were going to say you like creating problems. Well sometimes, but so yeah it's developed off the back of that so you know almost 20 years in engineering or more than 20 years in engineering and previous 20 years of construction-based work has given me a good realm for what can and can't be done in engineering.

[3:40] Kevin Sofen: So I follow a couple different people on LinkedIn and there's one gentleman named Wojciech, I think butchering his name a little bit. He's based out of Poland. Are you familiar with him?

[3:48] Craig Hiscock: I'm aware of him, yeah.

[3:49] Kevin Sofen: He talks a lot and I've seen a lot of posts from him and there's another guy named Jacob Bielowski, but they talk a lot about the fire safety risk challenges within tunnels. From your perspective, what are some of the unique inherent challenges and risks that tunnels face, especially to first responders?

[4:06] Craig Hiscock: Well, the moment you have an enclosed environment, you increase temperatures, you increase smoke capture, you inherently have a different condition than you would if it was an open environment where smoke can dissipate the atmosphere. In a tunnel it's like a longitudinal pipe and there are air flows that are created within that tube that are caused by vehicle movements or train movements or other things occurring in there that don't normally happen in a built environment like

[4:31] Kevin Sofen: we're sitting in today. And then as far as this training video that you created and within New Zealand, like what was the kind of creation of the video process like, how is it being used now, and is this sort of a maybe an education program that could be kind of maybe not the exact same but utilized in some capacity within other places around the world with tunnels?

[4:53] Craig Hiscock: Definitely, so the nucleus of it was originally started as a project-based approach where the project wanted to, because it was one of the first tunnels that had been recently built in New Zealand, the project decided that they wanted to put a training video together to explain to Fire Service about how they would approach an incident, where their opportunities to enter the tunnel were from, where they would find the fire safety features etc. New Zealand Fire Service liked that model so much that when they did the second tunnel, which was much bigger, that they wanted to create a training video for their own purposes that would allow them to then train their people indefinitely about that asset. So it was looking at how they would respond to the asset, where their entry points would be, what to look for where they'd find fire panels, where they'd find hydrants, things to be aware of from a risk perspective, those were all identified in that video. And then what's it been like in terms of, you mentioned wanting to retain this knowledge, I know in the fire service, in any industry, some people retire, people move, change jobs, whatever it may be. That idea of retaining knowledge and being able to kind of train the future. How has that been received and ultimately what's that like? It's been well received and it's well used. So I actually went over to New Zealand recently and I was talking to a couple of firefighters and they were like, we know you from somewhere that can't picture where it was from. And then they said, you're the guy in the video. So it is well received. It is being used on a regular basis and it's been implemented as part of their ongoing training.

[6:19] Kevin Sofen: You're that guy with the face.

[6:20] Craig Hiscock: That's the guy.

[6:22] Kevin Sofen: You were the guy. Yeah. One thing that we were talking about at dinner last night was this idea of future proofing. When you hear the word future proofing, what does that mean to you?

[6:31] Craig Hiscock: So for me, future proofing can be a number of different things. It can be looking at whether a piece of infrastructure has to deal with higher populations or different changes in vehicle types, fuel types, that type of thing. It can also be about how we look at how the asset's going to be operated in 20 years, 30 years, 50 years time. That can be part of our future proofing process. Are the systems that we choose to go into those assets now the right systems for 20, 30, 50 years time. When I was on the plane over from LAX to Sydney, I had 16 hours of flight, maybe it was 15 and a half, whatever, but there was one documentary I was watching and then it talked about this idea of cathedral thinking of where sometimes the architects who are building this project won't even be alive from the time when the project is finished. And the idea is that you're not building for a quick build, it's something that's gonna be around for more than seven generations. When you think about construction and then ultimately how we're approaching this, that's obviously kind of a fully loaded question, but what are your dots on that? So every time we build a tunnel or transport-related infrastructure project in Australia, we're building it with 100-year design life. I'm not gonna be around in 100 years, but it's a legacy that we're leaving for the next generation and generations after that. And so making sure that we have enough inherent thought process into the safety features we build into that is what's gonna benefit those generations as it comes full.

[7:56] Kevin Sofen: That's awesome. we're sitting here under this little IFE sign of sorts that actually I put up with Ryan, which was quite the fun adventure. The Institute of Fire Engineers, what's been your alignment with them? Who is, you know, in your in your words, like what is the IFE and what's what do they do?

[8:13] Craig Hiscock: So the Institute of Fire Engineers is a blending of firefighters and a blending of engineers coming together to work for common benefits. And from my personal experience, I started with the fire service as one of their major infrastructure engineers. That's where I was introduced to the IFE and I've been involved in what they've been doing in some way, shape or form ever since.

[8:34] Kevin Sofen: And for the layman, whether it's a woman of fear, whether you're a firefighter or you're a fire engineer, why is it something that in your opinion, that's something that's valuable to be a part of?

[8:46] Craig Hiscock: You talked about it when we first started the conversation, you said that there are people retiring out of the industry. And I think when I look around the room, there's a lot of people and I'm getting quite on in my years, but there's a lot of people who are getting older and moving out. And the legacy that this institute does is it allows us to encapsulate our knowledge and pass that down to the younger generation coming through.

[9:06] Kevin Sofen: Yeah. That's wonderful. Well, the wall side, Craig, and I want to give you one last sort of a mic drop of sorts. You know, is there any quote or any sort of line of inspiration or anything that you live by or any sort of thing that you could leave with us kind of talking about whether it's fire service related or general life related?

[9:24] Craig Hiscock: Life-related is always say yes, if it suits you. From a legacy of what we wanna do from an industry, I think step back and understand the other person's position. As a younger engineer, I was very fire-brained and wanting to impose my position on people. As I've gotten older, I've found it's better to sit back and listen to what the other person's thoughts are and adapt or try and understand their position and why that's trying to influence the decisions that are being made.

[9:50] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, I'll say, Craig, well, you officially have earned your Tim Tam, if you want. We have mint ones. I also heard it's either a double coat or a bust.

[9:58] Craig Hiscock: So if you want a double coat. I'm gonna go with double chop.

[10:01] Kevin Sofen: You know what, that's what it's there for. So I think maybe instead of, I don't know if you've seen there's some podcast shows where they, or it's like a TV show where they literally eat hot wings and they see who can go the farthest. I think I might start a show on eating Tim Tams while we're podcasting.

[10:15] Craig Hiscock: While we're podcasting.

[10:16] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, doing it loud. So Craig, it was a pleasure and nice talking with you and thanks for your time.

[10:19] Craig Hiscock: No worries, thank you.

[10:20] Kevin Sofen: Take care. Thanks for listening to this episode recorded alongside the Institute of Fire Engineers during the AFAC show. If you found value in the conversation or learned something new, we'd love to hear from you. Reach out, share your thoughts, and let's keep the discussion going on how we can shape the future of smart firefighting.