Episode 256: Building a Global Fire Service One Voice with Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell

Episode notes

What is a global fire service?

Hello Smart Firefighting Community!

Welcome to another episode of covering real world innovations via interviews with fire service and technology industry experts that empower YOU to develop your very own Smart Firefighting strategy!

In this episode:

How to improve real-time wildfire monitoring

How better information analysis can transform firefighter performance

The unique challenges of female firefighters

Hear from Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell - a U.S. Fire Administrator for the U.S. Fire Administration.

Lori dives into how satellites, especially low Earth orbit constellations, are transforming wildfire response. She explains how real-time monitoring can help detect wildfires sooner, leading to better decision-making and faster response times.

Beyond technology, Lori highlights the critical role of data, advocating for systems like NIRIS that can collect and analyze information to boost firefighter performance. Dr. Moore-Merrell also emphasizes the importance of a unified, global approach in the fire service—what she calls a "one voice"—to foster collaboration and share knowledge across borders.

She doesn’t shy away from the challenges, discussing the unique needs of female firefighters and the push for custom-fitted, purpose-driven PPE to ensure their safety and comfort on the job.

So take a listen to hear what she has to share!

Episode Resources:

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Chapters

1. 0:00 Intro from the IFE booth at AFAC 2024
2. 1:00 Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell joins
3. 1:21 Why Lori is in Sydney
4. 1:57 XPRIZE and satellites for wildfire detection
5. 3:32 Filling the gaps, not replacing people
6. 6:35 Lori's take on fire data
7. 8:22 Data-driven versus data-informed
8. 9:21 NIRIS: replacing a legacy reporting system
9. 12:44 Data for dynamic risks
10. 15:21 Open source and Global Fire Service One Voice
11. 17:46 Looking back at the first World Fire Congress
12. 21:07 It's a movement
13. 22:37 Station visits around the world
14. 27:00 XPRIZE teams and space-based ignition detection
15. 30:25 PPE and the needs of female firefighters
16. 33:12 What the IFE means to Lori
17. 35:37 Final words
18. 36:31 Wrap

Questions answered in this episode

What is XPRIZE doing for wildfire innovation?

Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell says there are two tracks: 20 teams working on space-based sensing for wildfire ignition, probability, growth, and movement, and 29 teams working on suppression capability and mitigation solutions.

Hear it at 27:54

Why are satellite constellations important for wildfire detection?

Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell explains that low Earth orbit satellite constellations can survey the entire earth in hours, not days or weeks, enabling real-time detection of ignition before fires have already moved through an area.

Hear it at 2:13

What is NIRIS and why was it created?

NIRIS, the National Emergency Response Information System, is a new analytics platform to replace the legacy 1976 National Fire Incident Reporting System. Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell says it will capture real-time data, reduce the burden on firefighters by pulling existing data from dispatch and weather systems, and provide the quality and quantity of data needed to train AI models and inform operational decisions.

Hear it at 9:50

What is the difference between data-driven and data-informed decision making?

Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell says you want to be data-informed, not data-driven, because you still need experience to interpret the data and get intelligence from it. Data should inform decisions, but experienced officers must still make the final call.

Hear it at 8:26

What is the Fire Service One Voice movement?

Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell describes Fire Service One Voice as a collaboration of all U.S. fire service organizations, from labor and management to volunteers, code standards folks, and researchers, who align to identify and work on common challenges without setting aside their own missions. The concept is now being elevated to a global fire service one voice.

Hear it at 15:44

Transcript

Machine transcript of the published audio. Names may be misspelled and some sections are missing.

Ep 256 transcript

Building a Global Fire Service One Voice with Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell

Speakers: Kevin Sofen, Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell

Source: Whisper medium.en machine transcription of the published Podbean audio (no original transcript found in Drive), lightly cleaned. Speakers were separated by voice clustering and then checked and assigned by hand at every speaker change. Gaps where the model returned no usable text are marked [inaudible m:ss].

[0:00] Kevin Sofen: Welcome to a mini Smart Firefighting podcast series, recorded live at the Institute of Fire Engineers booth during the 2024 AFAC Show Down Under in Sydney, Australia. Throughout these conversations, we dive into critical issues like fire safety, emerging technologies, diversity in the fire service, and innovative solutions for emergency response. fascinating insights from leaders around the world on how we can build a safer and more resilient future. Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell, the U.S. fire administrator, discusses how satellites and data systems like NERIS are transforming public safety response, especially within wildfire. She emphasizes the importance of real-time monitoring, custom-fitted PPE for women in a fire service, and the need for a unified global approach to collaboration and knowledge-sharing with the One Voice movement around the world. Sitting here alongside Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell at AFAC in Sydney, September of 2024, what a treat it is to be sitting alongside you, Lori. How are you doing?

[1:06] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: I'm doing well, Kevin, thank you. And it's always a treat to be able to talk with you at a conference. We seem to do that a lot.

[1:12] Kevin Sofen: I know, I've seen you in a couple of continents now and especially all over America and from [inaudible 1:16] to Australia, it's pretty special.

[1:19] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: It is indeed, it is indeed.

[1:21] Kevin Sofen: So what are you doing here in Sydney?

[1:23] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: So it's multitasking for one. So I came over to Australia earlier last week to spend some time with the XPRIZE folks and looking at the teams who are working on wildfire innovation for sensing wildfire. And then there's a separate team who are working on some innovation around suppressing wildfire. And so it's exciting to see the science is being brought to the table. So we did that early in Melbourne and then came over to Sydney for AFAC and the IFE conferences and what an experience it's been so far.

[1:57] Kevin Sofen: I mean, so many things we can dive into on that, but let's just double-click into some of the XPRIZE and the conversation there with the idea, with the rise of using satellites and the rise of being able to use Earth observation tech. Why is that important, and how is that a capability that did not exist before?

[2:13] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: Well, it's existed in some frameworks. We certainly have it in DOD capabilities. The problem with that is that a lot of that secure data that can't be readily shared. We need much more real-time capability. And so having some low Earth orbit satellite constellations is really what's needed. And so launching new satellites that are specific for this issue and can be expanded for other hazards as well, not just fire, but looking forward to rising sea level and indication of storms and some of the other things that the satellites will be able to be leveraged for is going to be important. But for right now, we're talking about wildfire, we're talking about constellations that can be launched and monitored, that will be able to survey the earth, not just be focused on the US or any one continent, but survey the earth in a matter of hours, not days. And that's been sort of the problem as well. If you look at a space, let's just talk about Greece fires, for example, Greece has been on fire right up to the city of Athens. And with that, we see it one week, and everything looks fine. If you don't see it again till the next week and the fires already moved through, then you're a little bit late to sense the ignition, right? And so this is what's important is that real-time, much more frequent observation of the entire globe. And that's what these satellites are seeking to do.

[3:32] Kevin Sofen: And it seems like there's also a good cost savings opportunities for not needing to send planes out and being able to fly all the time. But from doing it from a satellite, we're able to get those insights to be able to make better decisions, whether it's where to do a prescribed burn, where is the early source of ignition, a lot of these different things that again was a very manual lift before.

[3:54] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: Absolutely, and I think we'll still do some of that manual lift. What we're doing is filling the gaps. So there are an array of tools, right? We need the aerial observation, we need the LIDAR, we need all of those kinds of techniques, because any one of them is not enough. We have to fill the gaps with multiple technologies, and that's what these satellites are going to bring. It's what the new program, it's not just a satellite, it's the intelligence built into them for the sensing power and that's what these teams are going to bring to the table. So it's one more tool I think to the tool chest for us in the wildfire space.

[4:29] Kevin Sofen: Yeah and of course kudos to the XPRIZE team and everything that's going on with bringing that moonshot problem and then I know then the other track is once we detect the fire being able to then try and put it out autonomously, what are your thoughts in terms of where that status is in terms of being able to leverage autonomous response and suppression.

[4:47] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: Around that, we certainly want to see what technology can bring to the table. We're very familiar with robotics and drones. Is there something beyond that, or can we perfect that to a different area? You know, what we want to do is have technology that firefighters can use, but there are terrains to which firefighters have great difficulty getting to. So we're dropping them in. They're spending a lot of time on terrain that's very dangerous. We lose firefighters. we injure firefighters in those spaces. So is there something that technology can bring to supplement our firefighters? We're not talking about technology necessarily that can replace them because we need the cognitive decision making from our experts on the ground. But are there things we can do that make their job not just easier, perhaps, but also a time saving much more efficient and effective? And that's where we want safe, efficient, effective and if those three criteria can come out of new technology to supplement our firefighters then that's where we need to go.

[5:48] Kevin Sofen: I think that's a really important vernacular in that we're not replacing, we are supplementing, we are enhancing, we are improving, saving a little time, allowing you to ensure that there's a higher level of safety that you can go home at night and I think that's been a big thing but trying to integrate new technology in the fire service more so not even just technology is something that you've been pioneering is this wonderful four-letter word called data And I know you've been a big data aficionado over your years, and there's been this common challenge. And I was on the fire truck today with New South Wales of some of the data reporting challenges that they face. And then this ties to the common dynamic of common challenges around the world in the fire service. But data being one of them, from a very high level layman perspective, what are some of the data challenges that we face in the Global Fire Service? And what's the Lori hot take on data at the moment?

[6:38] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: You know, it's rare that we have a nation anywhere that does well documenting the incident itself. You know, many of us have had documentation systems, data systems that are a bit antiquated to track fire incidents, right? Where did they happen? Maybe we captured your, you know, dispatch time, the response time, how fast you got there. And then at the end of the day, maybe cause an origin, right? And so we have not a lot of information on what firefighters do, and they show up on our website. firefighters do when they show up on the fire ground. We need to understand operations because if we don't understand what they're doing on the ground, how many people do they need to do that? Is the training we're giving them sufficient to do those operations? Where are the gaps within our firefighter performance that we can enhance, that we can build? So it's not about the individual or saying they're not doing it right. No. It's about enhancing giving them the capability to have the equipment they need, the number of people they need on the scene, the right training. And so all of that comes to play when you have the right data to inform that information. And I always talk about matching resources to the risk environment. How do we know how many firefighters to send to a high rise fire? If it's a 25 story building and the fire's on the 10th floor, how many firefighters do you need to take care of that situation to stop the spread and facilitate rescue and all of the things that go into that. Well, that's a very different number than if I'm going to a single-family dwelling with no exposures or no other structures nearby. Those are two different effective response forces. And so we need to have information that can help us inform that kind of resource deployment.

[8:22] Kevin Sofen: And Lori, I heard you say the other day there's a difference between data-driven and data-informed.

[8:26] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: Absolutely, yes. Data-driven, we've needed data for so long that we wanted it so badly we would use the term, we want to be data-driven, until you come to understand that you don't want to be data-driven, you want to be data-informed because you still need experience to help make a decision. Experience that can read the data, interpret the data, get the intelligence. So it's not the data themselves, it's the intelligence in the data, it's using different sources of data, not just one, combining them, we call it data fusion in our world, right? And finding the intelligence in there that an experienced officer can take and then be better informed to make decisions, whether it's on the incident itself or post-incident to make changes in their department, in their company, in their crew, in their brigade. You know, these are all of the things that we need for that intelligence, but coupled with experience.

[9:23] Kevin Sofen: And within the American Fire Service, you've played an influential role within pioneering the NERIS program, which has now come online, there's some early departments coming on. For those that maybe aren't aware of NERIS and are kind of interested in A, learning more about it, but B, sort of why are we doing NERIS, give us some context on sort of why NERIS was born and ultimately kind of what's the next couple roads, next steps for all things NERIS.

[9:50] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: Yeah, for us in the U.S., we have been functioning, our fire service has been functioning on a legacy system that we've referred to as the National Fire Incident Reporting System. And that's just what it is, fire incident reporting. So it's about the incident. Where was the incident? What was the cause and origin? Again, we have very little information on anything around the response. What was done right? How can we do it better next time? What new resources do we need? And so given that system is legacy, it was built in 1976, it cannot be fixed. Right. And we can't even transition that to the cloud. And so we need to build a new platform, which we are, and that's NERIS, our National Emergency Response Information System. And so NERIS is going to give us the capability on an analytics platform to capture data in real time, to capture using the risk layers that already exist, so we'll put in data that already exists, so I don't have to ask a firefighter to enter data, because I can tell you, first of all, firefighters don't like entering data, and that means they're not very good at it by choice, right? So we really want to have a reduced burden on our firefighters for entering data. If I can get it somewhere else, why would I do that? Why would we introduce human error into our data when it's already in their dispatch system, or it's already in their, the weather service data, it's already in some risk layer that we have in a geospatial environment. Why do I need them to then reenter? And so this is a kind of concept that we're dealing with NERIS. And NERIS will become, I think, the model for the world. I've seen some other nations who are also working with data. They're working with some AI algorithms because AI is only good if I have data to train the models and if I can train the model what to look for in the data. And so I know that this conference, there's a lot of talk about AI, but without data, AI is non-functional. It doesn't exist. You have to feed it and we need the data to be able to feed it. And so that's what we're looking for with NERIS. Can we bring in good quality and quantity of data so that we can apply algorithms to see things that humans might miss in the data itself, right? What can it tell us about our fire problem in the US, about the fire problem here in Australia? Maybe we'd been miscalculating because we haven't had quality data on which to make decisions. So that's the premise of NERIS. And I do believe that we're gonna be able to perpetuate that in other nations, just on the concept alone, plus all of our code for nearest is open source. And so we're ready to share with other nations. Canada's already interested, for example, we're gonna be meeting more and more with Australia, we're meeting with the UAE. So there's a lot of different code sharing that's going on to help our fire service around the globe to elevate based on data.

[12:44] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, and it seems like because of all these different dynamics in an external environment that they've evolved of, whether it's lithium-ion batteries that we have in a lot of our different appliances to the solar panels that are on the roofs, those different classifications aren't necessarily in the legacy systems because they didn't exist. And because we can't really categorize was there a lithium-ion battery fire, was there a solar panel fire, we can't really have that level of data informed decision because there's no raw data to categorize it. And then we'd love to kind of hear you kind of build on that like we need to continue to be able to categorize and document the different types of things that happen, i.e. these new risks that are there being proposed by human conveniences, as well as also just the evolution of all things, climate driven challenges that are faced. Why is that so important to continue to have the proper classification of these different threats so we can again make better informed decisions?

[13:37] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: Oh, Kevin, I love that question because it really does recognize the dynamic nature of the risks that are around us, the dynamic nature of our communities, whether it is new structures that are being built or dealing with the hazards of structures that currently exist that weren't built to code, and they're built in fire prone lands, but they're not fire resistant. And looking at, you know, these major storms that are coming through, we really have a baseline risk change. Emerging technology you mentioned with lithium ion. So all of these things provide this dynamic nature of our evolving risk, which firefighters respond. You see, we respond to an adverse risk event that happens in that risk environment. And so when that adverse risk event happens, then we have to be able to record it. Because if it's a first, like a lithium-ion battery fire in some of our nations, right, and they may have their first, because they're only introducing the scooters and the e-bikes or the electric vehicles. And so we want them to understand and be able to record that as well as their first, and then learn from that for next, because there will always be a next. And what if in, you know, five years we have hydrogen cell, maybe a lot sooner than that. What if there are fire risks that we've not anticipated for hydrogen cell technology? We need this green technology, but we must look ahead and be able to anticipate the risk. And then when a risk event or an adverse risk event occurs, we must document it so that we can learn from it, know what to research, know how to get in front of that risk and prepare our firefighters to respond. So any data system must be dynamic so that you can add the new risk as they evolve and record incidents that occur for the learning purposes.

[15:21] Kevin Sofen: So you mentioned earlier, this whole dynamic of NERIS being open source and then this interest in trying to share and you've helped push the narrative of Fire Service One Voice, but I even heard you say the other day global fire service one voice, this idea of knowledge sharing, open source, global fire service one voice. What is it? Why is it so important? And how do we continue to just beat the drum on that?

[15:44] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: I love that. So we have in the U.S., as you well know, the power of Fire Service One Voice. And that is just a combination of all of our different organizations and associations that have interest in fire, in the fire service itself. So it is everybody from our labor and our management, to our volunteers, to our code standards, folks, to our researchers, all of these different associations or organizations all have leadership. And so each of those leaders have come together, and we've talked about collaborating, not anybody's setting aside their own mission. Everybody's got a separate mission that they need to fulfill. But can we align so that we identify our common challenges and we work together on those common challenges? And so that's what we've come to know as Fire Service One Voice. And it has made a difference in the US because even when I go speak to our Congress, they now are asking me about Fire Service One Voice. So that solidarity of our national organizations seems to be getting some traction. And so what we're elevating based on the World Fire Congress that happened this year is the concept of a global fire service one voice. And that's going to be necessary because it's not just in the U.S. where the fire service often takes backseat to law enforcement or backseat to the defense or a backseat to others when we're first on the scene in every hazard situation. We can't keep taking back seed and so we want to make sure that we can, it's not just the US, it's every nation that this is the case. We want to elevate our firefighters and our fire service around the world to take their rightful spot and understand they need the funding, they need their training, they need their resources to respond to these risks. They can't keep doing more with less, they can't keep taking in the changes that are happening to them without the proper training to do so having a global fire service one voice is going to be absolutely key to elevating our firefighters around the world.

[17:46] Kevin Sofen: So now that you're a couple months removed from the first ever World Fire Congress, it was May, so three, four months ago, as you reflect back on it, what sticks out the most? What are you proud of and ultimately what next with that initiative?

[18:01] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: The World Fire Congress, we had anticipated, first, we had to identify my counterpart, the top fire official in each nation, and it was varied. Finding the who to invite was our first challenge, and now that we've begun to uncover and identify who's the top fire official in each nation, then getting 56 nations together was the next feat. Then what we witnessed happen over two days of conversation, the network building, the relationships. Now I have contacts in all 56 plus, because we continue to add nations. I met this morning with our Latin nations and their organization, and so many of those nations who didn't realize what it was and they didn't make the decision to come now, realized they missed the opportunity, but they didn't because I still invite them to be part of the World Fire Congress. Every nation is welcome. And so it was so far beyond what we could have even dreamed to happen in those two days of having national global fire service in one room, face-to-face conversations, understanding we are not different. We are all the same in the fire space and we face the challenges. Now, the perspective and the scope and scale of those challenges may be different, but together we have to face them and bring and share our solutions. And so this is what we want to continue to do with the World Fire Congress?

[19:28] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, I will say that when I reflect back on it, what I enjoyed was the different languages that were spoken throughout, whether it was Chinese, Japanese, Spanish, and hearing it real time translation, it was basically, it was the same thing that I would normally hear from other countries that are speaking English. And it was sort of this commonality of these common problems that we face. And obviously there's local context and local nuances kind of, again, ties into, we have very similar problems, just kind of painted a little different way. But what really stood out to me was the final night. in the Library of Congress where I think everyone kind of just stood there and like pinched themselves up like okay this is it we can do this yes this is a big challenge but this kind of kind of everyone on the same red rover team you know fighting this challenge together I felt like really was personified that evening and you can just kind of you felt it in the energy and one I just being able to document all the photos with you with everyone seeing how much it meant to everyone to be able to be there with you that night was really special like anybody I was looking back at my photos from the day just seeing the impact that it has. So I think the thing for me that I'm excited about with you and your team is that World First World Fire Congress was a two-day event but it was not a moment in time. The ball keeps bouncing and it's very critical with these ongoing communities of action, communities of practice to continue to keep the ball going. Just kind of keeping the ball bouncing from World Fire Congress. If other groups and other entities want to get involved and like are trying to say hey I missed out but I didn't really because again it was just That was a two-day event, World Fire Congress and this one voice is a movement, it's a culture. What's your message to them and how to sort of continue to join the initiative?

[21:07] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: Kevin, you've just coined, I think, the phrase we're going to use, actually. It's a movement. It is a movement. Join the movement. We want nations to come and be part of the World Fire Congress. We want their voice. I would love to see, you know, 80, 100 nations when we get to 2026 in the UK, they're going to host, we know in 2028, the United Arab Emirates are going to host, we're now discussing who's going to host in 2030, we invite nations to come together and be part of this movement. And I think, Kevin, that's our new phrase, World Fire Congress is a movement and it will continue to evolve.

[21:43] Kevin Sofen: I love that. Well, I'll just give it to you because nonetheless, it was, it was, it kind of came to me from being part of the whole ecosystem of the team. And yeah, I pinch myself to be a piece of the puzzle of it all and excited to continue to see what happens next. So a couple of other things I wanted to ask about, Lori, and they're kind of tied in this dynamic of this experience we've been here. Australia, they're an amazing country that I've learned a lot from just kind of being here within the New South Wales Fire Department. But there were a few things that really caught my attention here while being in the fire service here. One of them in particular with the laundry bag and tag program in terms of recycling and repurposing and sharing clean gear. When you walked around the fire department, I would love your thoughts on that. And then, you know, I want to kind of dive into other items of the Australian Fire Service that you've noticed that have been things that have made you know, think and pause and maybe think about how we can maybe learn from and replicate in certain ways.

[22:37] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: Oh, yes. Everywhere I go, Kevin, you know that I do a station visit, and that includes international engagement. And so I was able to do a station visit. We had several of their crews, the brigades, come in and just have conversation, just like I do in the US, because that knowledge exchange, even from that, what we would call in the US, a backstep firefighter, right, even from the firefighter, newest rookie, and we had a new first year rookie that was in the room. We had someone who'd been on the job for 30 years that was in the room, right. And so we're getting this real understanding of the Australian Fire Service in one of their largest, their largest state. And so one of the things that I was able to do at this particular station was also get a tour of not only the station that really embraced history and innovation at the same time, which is one of the coolest things that I've witnessed in a fire station. But their new, as you say, bag and tag, that means something else in the US, by the way, but here it's talking about their gear and how they bag it on scene after an incident where the gear has been exposed, they've been exposed, they doff the gear, they bag it and tag it as dirty on the scene, and then it goes into a bin. It's never put back in the cab of the truck, it's never brought into the station, it goes into a bin that is then picked up, and then they have clean gear delivered. And the clean gear carries a QR code, it's all put in an inventory in the station. No one has their own personal gear, you have a size, everyone has been sized and then there's an inventory of the sizes in your station. So when you come on duty each day, you go in and you check out gear and that's what you wear until again it's dirty, maybe you have to bag and tag it dirty and you go get another set before you finish your shift. And so it is that kind of inventory and turnover that is absolutely amazing and one that I've not seen to that scale. And what I take away is that when I walked into that station, it's the first station in my 35-year history that I've ever walked in that didn't smell smoke. That was stunning to me. They have a vent system that is really revolutionary, I think, that not only gets the diesel exhaust out of the station quickly, but also this bag and tag system so that gear is not hanging off-gassing into the system from a locker room or even a clean room where you do your laundering and you know in our stations we often do that where they are sending it out so never is their dirty gear open in the station. So stunning capability that I really it's a best practice I will definitely be taken back to the States and talking about it more. Just kudos to the New South Wales and others in Australia who have really gotten this right. It is a best practice and that's one of the reasons I'm here is to learn, do knowledge exchange. We bring knowledge, we take knowledge back with us.

[25:38] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, it's one of the most practical, pragmatic, simple evolutions a lot of times we talk about new tech, earth observation, wearables, drones and all that's fantastic and you know both of us can nerd out on that but seeing the how they're leveraging an app and just asset based tracking and repurposing PPE and cleaning it and I know there was a little bit of a culture change in terms of hey you know this is my gear and it's actually well it's like you know actually it's it's all our gear and you think about when you go to a hotel room and it's like those sheets have been used many times before and they're clean it's like whatever you go to a diner you know plate it's been eaten on thousands of times before it's been cleaned whatever it's really no different in the sense that you're just repurposing and reusing the gear and the manner to make sure that the most important thing firefighter health and safety is put at the top priority. And we'll see the payoff I

[26:27] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: I hadn't thought about those analogies, but those are actually pretty good analogies. I think we'll see in years to come the payoff for them when they have reduced their cancer numbers. We'll have to wait years to see it, but we know already from the World Health Organization that firefighting as an occupation is a class one carcinogen. And so given that they are reducing the exposure to that, to the products of combustion in the midst of the job, this is going to make a huge difference for them. And I think that it'll be something that we can all witness and make the change ourselves.

[27:00] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, absolutely. And one other thing I want to dive into before we wrap up here is just the commonality that Australia and U.S. and frankly, many countries around the world struggle with from a, or the wildfire challenge, but also the WUI environment and some of the lessons learned that we've been looking at and trying to document and build on from some of the tragic fires in Maui the other year. But kind of just the current dynamic and challenges from wildfire to bushfire in your thoughts right now. I mean, of course we talked about XPRIZE at the beginning and that's urgent technology. We're continuing to commercialize to bring the market, but from the commonality and the challenges in the whole story of the WUI environment in particular, kind of gets interested in your current thoughts on it, but then also again, sort of driving home any sort of thoughts and best practices and messages to entrepreneurs or entities that are kind of thinking about how to, again, be part of this potential solution the challenges that we're facing today.

[27:54] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: You know, I love that. With XPRIZE, there are 20 teams in the space-based ignition, sensing and understanding probability for fire and growth and movement of fire once it ignites. Then there are 29 teams in the other category that's bringing some solutions for suppression capability and some of the mitigation. What I would say is that go forward to understand, we have to talk about the difference in wild land fire versus an interface fire where it is both vegetation and structure versus a community suburban or urban conflagration, where it is truly structured to structure fire spread. And I said this to the teams that I met with earlier this week, you need to understand the difference because if you're only bringing a solution when trees are burning, that's just vegetation, it's not going to work for us in the communities. And that's where our real risks are. Because often our forests are the bushes, they call it here, we need the fire on the land to perpetuate the growth of the native vegetation. And so the fire in our culture is good. Many of our indigenous peoples even in the States, fire is good, and it is useful. It is true to perpetuate our vegetation. of our species are certainly perpetuated through fire. Their seeds are only open through fire, right? So this is one understanding. But when we build toward fire-prone land, and we put literally homes and communities in the path of fire, that's a different situation. No longer are we talking about just trees burning. Now we've got structures who are, when they It's a very different product of combustion that's much more carcinogenic, not the vegetation burning anymore, but the more, you know, even beneficial smoke. But this is now hazardous material smoke in our communities. That's going to be off-putted for public. health purposes, it is going to be population migration, how do we evacuate appropriately, when we have communities that have one way in and one way out. I mean these are the scenarios that we need anyone in the industry trying to bring solutions to understand which landscape are you addressing because the need and the scope and scale are very different.

[30:23] Kevin Sofen: And my brain's kind of running around because there's so many things I want to continue to ask and I know we're kind of running over time but one other thing that came to mind was this when we had a two hour long conversation about this yesterday or two days ago but the round table that we had about custom fitted and purpose-driven PPE for women in the fire service and two different quotes that really stuck out to me was that if you know if you if the gear doesn't fit you don't have the confidence if the gear doesn't fit you don't really feel like you belong and I think that's been a challenge in one of the obstacles of maybe some of the recruitment of a kind of a diverse fire service workforce but quick high-level kind of what was that dialogue, why was that important and maybe and that's how you assign Dan Cotter a few different action items there but any kind of quick summary high-level and the next steps on that.

[31:10] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: Absolutely, so the U.S. Fire Administration has been working with the Australian Champions of Change in this space and we started just over a year ago having the conversation around women in the fire service and how do we recruit more women into the fire service and make them feel like they belong, that this is a choice that little girls can make to become firefighters when they grow up. And how do we set that example? Well, that has evolved from our first meeting a year ago in New York to the meeting here, where we are starting to talk specifically about ways to do that. How do we bring more women in? Well, if we can't give them gear that fits them, or we make them feel like they don't belong, then they're not going to come in. And if they do come in, they're not going to stay. And so we chose this meeting to address the protective gear and the discussion around fit for purpose. And I love the way that discussion unfolded because one of the action items that we're talking about that seems to be sort of commonsensical is a fit test for your gear. Now we have a fit test for an SCBA mask, for the breathing mask that firefighters use. it must be fitted to your face. And there are specifics around that fit test that are even in our industry standards. Why have we not yet evolved to a fit test for our gear, the turnout coat, the pants, the boots, the gloves? So we're going to be moving forward to say, how do we establish a fit test, just like we have for our face mask, for the rest of the gear? Because that's gonna be important. And so this is one conversation. We'll come back together in March of 2025, same group again, going to New York for UN Women's Week, and we're going to have this conversation again. And we'll be introducing another obstacle, frankly, to women coming onto the fire service. And so we're going to continue these action items on PPE. We're going to establish some other working groups around that, and then we'll continue with next and continue to have the conversation evolve.

[33:12] Kevin Sofen: Well, no shortage of work and things to do. And I appreciate, Lori, everything you're continuing to pioneer and probably a hundred other things we could talk about. But to wrap us up, I'd love to know two final things. One is the Institute of Fire Engineers. It was an organization that kind of, I think, helped both of us get here one way or another. But in your words, what is the Institute of Fire Engineers and why is it an organization that is, you know, an important organization institution throughout the world?

[33:37] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: You know, the IFE had been around for a very long time. We have an American chapter as well, I've had engagements with the IFE and various continents around the world, and they are always so passionate about education, about addressing timely education, what's needed today for the events of today, what's needed today for the firefighters and for the engagement of the firefighters with the built environment, what is the involvement that we need to have in changing the codes and standards around the built environment that makes a difference, it makes it a safer risk environment, it's still a risk environment. But how do we make it as safe as possible for firefighters? And I think, you know, that collaboration between engineers, fire protection engineers, building engineers, and firefighters is the perfect combination to inform those types of decisions. And so down to, you know, understanding, you know, I was told, when I came on the fire service, one of the things is, you know, you understand and you're trained in some construction, you know, building type construction and understanding. And one of the instructors, I'll never forget, said, you don't always worry about how the building is built. What you better understand is how it's going to come down in a fire. So that kind of intelligence, that kind of wisdom, really, right, that comes from only experience and collaboration. And that's what I think the IFE does. The IFE puts the right people in the room to have the timely conversation to address the issues of today. And that's why I'm really grateful to be part of their conference along with APAC.

[35:12] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, likewise. One of my biggest takeaways from IFE was watching 26 fire engineers go to the fire training academy two days ago and put on real PPE and put wet stuff on the red stuff and think about maybe thinking twice about saying, hey, just add another hose line, just add another length of hose. And yeah, I think all of them left change in a different perspective on what it truly means to live a life in the day of life of fire service.

[35:37] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: Yeah, I concur.

[35:38] Kevin Sofen: So final things, Lori, I'd love to hear any quote that maybe you live by or words of wisdom or any sort of something that is kind of top of my right now of any sort of final thoughts or ideas you could leave us with here today.

[35:50] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: Oh my goodness, Kevin, that's a big one because we could start a whole different conversation around that. You know, a quote that I try to keep, friend of mine, is one around just from leadership and people And the quote is, you know, I don't know what you'll do in life, but I know that those who found a place to serve are those that are the happiest. And I'm paraphrasing that, but I don't know what you'll do, but I know that those who find a place of service are the happiest people. And so that is what I try to maintain and how I tried to lead others to find their place to serve, because that's where you're going to be the happiest.

[36:31] Kevin Sofen: Well done, Lori. Well, you're embodying that very well and continuing to inspire me to do the same thing. So thank you for all you're doing. Always a pleasure to cross paths and look forward to seeing you again soon.

[36:41] Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell: Thank you, Kevin.

[36:42] Kevin Sofen: Thanks, Lori. Appreciate it. Thanks for listening to this episode recorded alongside the Institute of Fire Engineers during the AFAC Show. If you find value in the conversation or learn something new, we'd love to hear from you. Reach out, share your thoughts, and let's keep the discussion going on how we can shape the future of smart firefighting.