Episode 244: Proactive Fire Safety: Embracing Community Risk Reduction with Kevin Sehlmeyer

Episode notes

What does community risk reduction involve, and how can we do better?

Hello Smart Firefighting Community!

Welcome to another episode of covering real world innovations via interviews with fire service and technology industry experts that empower YOU to develop your very own Smart Firefighting strategy!

In this episode:

How is community risk reduction (CRR) transforming fire safety?

What’s the impact of proactive measures and unified voices in the fire service?

What’s the critical role of smart devices, smoke alarms, and data collection in enhancing community safety and reducing fire risks?

Hear from Kevin Sehlmeyer - the Director of the Bureau of Fire Services for the State of Michigan.

Kevin explores the essential aspects of community risk reduction (CRR) and its critical role in the fire service. He emphasizes the importance of educating the community, installing safety features, and addressing specific risks based on local contexts.

He also talks about the significance of engaging stakeholders and leveraging technology, such as the NERIS app, to enhance CRR efforts. Kevin leaves us with insights on the challenges faced in fire safety and the necessity of a unified voice in the fire service.

So take a listen to hear what he has to share!

Head to www.smartfirefighting.com to discover how SFF accelerates innovation for emergency responders, to find out when our next event is, or review our curated resources!

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Chapters

1. 0:00 Intro: two Kevin S's at the NFPA show
2. 0:54 Kevin Sehlmeyer joins
3. 2:02 What community risk reduction is
4. 3:11 Misconceptions about CRR and why a risk assessment comes first
5. 4:28 Engaging stakeholders and who is most at risk in Michigan
6. 6:50 Proven tech still underused: alarms, sprinklers, closed doors
7. 11:39 Getting more departments to embrace CRR
8. 13:15 What IFMA is and how it works with NFPA
9. 15:06 One voice for the fire service
10. 16:20 NERIS and better fire data
11. 18:31 Lithium-ion batteries and micromobility
12. 21:34 What excites him and what keeps him up at night
13. 22:55 Wrap

Questions answered in this episode

What is community risk reduction in the fire service?

Kevin Sehlmeyer says community risk reduction is every component of fire response, from educating the public to making sure folks have engineered features like smoke alarms and know what to do if they have a fire. It includes everything from fire safety to slips and falls to water safety, and it will be different in every single community.

Hear it at 2:02

Who is most at risk of dying in a fire in Michigan?

Kevin Sehlmeyer says you are most at risk to die in a home you own while aging in place. Specifically, you are more likely to die in a fire if you are male, in a home you own that is between 700 and 1100 square feet, and built in the 1930s through 1960s.

Hear it at 4:51

Why should fire departments use 10-year sealed smoke alarms instead of 9-volt battery alarms?

Kevin Sehlmeyer explains that 9-volt battery smoke alarms have a human factor because the battery dies within a year and must be replaced. By using 10-year sealed smoke alarms, you take the human factor of having to change the battery out of it. FEMA will not give a grant to a fire department unless they put up 10-year alarms.

Hear it at 7:47

Where do most fatal fires in Michigan start?

Kevin Sehlmeyer says the majority of fatal fires in Michigan start in the living room. This has been consistent for the whole seven years he has been state fire marshal. Because the living room or front door is not an option for escape, he believes teaching escape routes through windows to all citizens, especially seniors, is important.

Hear it at 10:33

What is NERIS and how will it help the fire service?

Kevin Sehlmeyer describes NERIS as a system that will allow firefighters to file reports on their phones. It will provide every fire department in the United States with its own dashboard to see data like how many medicals, vehicle fires, or structure fires they have had. It will capture deeper data than current systems allow.

Hear it at 16:29

Transcript

Machine transcript of the published audio. Names may be misspelled and some sections are missing.

Ep 244 transcript

Proactive Fire Safety: Embracing Community Risk Reduction with Kevin Sehlmeyer

Speakers: Kevin Sofen, Kevin Sehlmeyer

Source: Whisper medium.en machine transcription of the published Podbean audio (no original transcript found in Drive), lightly cleaned. Speakers were separated by voice clustering and then checked and assigned by hand at every speaker change. Gaps where the model returned no usable text are marked [inaudible m:ss].

[0:00] Kevin Sofen: Welcome to the Smart Firefighting Podcast. Kevin Sofen here, where we cover all things related to the future of smart technology for first responders around the world. Please enjoy the show and let me know what you want to learn about next. In this episode, we have two Kevin S's, Kevin Sofen, myself, and Kevin Sehlmeyer, the State of Michigan Fire Marshal. We're going to dive into the vital elements of community risk reduction in its crucial role in the fire service. We're going to stress the importance of community education, safety feature installation, and addressing local specific risk. This discussion also underscores the value of stakeholder engagement in leveraging technologies like the new NERIS application to boost community risk reduction efforts. Tune in for insights on fire safety challenges and the need for a unified voice in the fire service. Here at the NFPA show alongside, There's not many of us, another Kevin S. Kevin, how you doing?

[1:00] Kevin Sehlmeyer: I'm doing well. Thanks for having me over here this morning.

[1:02] Kevin Sofen: Of course, how is your NFPA show treating you?

[1:04] Kevin Sehlmeyer: Well, you know, it's been a really good NFPA conference and, you know, being involved with International Fire Marshals Association, being on their executive board, actually been in Orlando since Saturday that had our board meeting and then we had our president's meeting. And then yesterday had an opportunity, or Monday, the opening ceremonies, but yesterday on Tuesday, I actually had the opportunity to be part of a panel to talk about community risk reduction from capitals to communities. So it was good to, you know, anytime you get to rub elbows with fellow community risk reduction folks, it's always good because we're sharing ideas with each other.

[1:36] Kevin Sofen: The CRR community is some of my favorite humans in the fire service, in particular on the NFPA side, Karen and Chelsea do a great job leading it from NFPA amongst many other people. It seems like here at the NFPA show, one of the biggest overlaps between the fire engineering, fire protection realm, and then the fire response and fire service community is the CRR term. In your words and terms, what is community risk reduction and why is it important?

[2:02] Kevin Sehlmeyer: Well, you know, that's a great question. And I think that's the part, you know, we look at community risk reduction is what's going on in your community. But I'll go even one step further. I think community risk reduction is every, you know, is every component of the fire response all the way through to educating, to making sure that folks have engineered features, everything, something as simple as a smoke alarm is an engineered feature, right? And that they're educated on what to do if and when they do have a fire to escape. Or it could be slips and falls. It could be, you know, we're, in most of the country it's getting warm, we're going out to the lakes, we're going out to the rivers. It could be everything from water safety to wearing a life jacket, keeping an eye on your kids. So community risk reduction is going to be different in every single community in every state.

[2:52] Kevin Sofen: It seems like community risk reduction is a combination of a hundred little things. Based on the local context of the community, whether it's wildfire escape routes, whether it's installing smoke alarms in your house, I mean, that's kind of common everywhere, to, like you said, education about water safety. What are maybe some misconceptions about CRR maybe from the fire service level and also even the community level?

[3:21] Kevin Sehlmeyer: Well, I think, I will say this, I think there's some folks out there that are just saying, okay, we're not gonna call it fire prevention anymore, we're gonna call it community risk reduction. And I think one of the things is you gotta survey your community, you gotta know what your risks are. So if you're gonna do community risk reduction, you have to do a risk assessment of your community, okay? Once you have an idea of what it is, and that risk assessment changes from time. I'll give you an example. My son's a firefighter in Muskegon, Michigan, right on Lake Michigan, right across from Milwaukee, to put it into perspective geographically. In the last two weeks, they've had two young folks drowned in Lake Michigan. The water, the lake is dangerous. It's great to go out there and cool off, but when the wind's blowing certain ways, you got riptides and people underestimate the power of water. So that's a big deal right now for the Muskegon Fire Department, but they're still gonna have, you know, they're gonna make fire responses today. They're still gonna make EMS responses. And lo and behold, about probably mid-September, the lake's gonna be so cold that people aren't gonna be in it again. So that's a good example of today it's an issue because it's record heat in Michigan, but the reality is that community risk reduction is constantly moving, the target moves with it also.

[4:28] Kevin Sofen: You had mentioned earlier just the, every community is a little different and there's different stakeholders in the community and fire departments need to really understand their risk or really understand their stakeholders. How have you done this in Michigan as far as engaging with stakeholders and how should fire departments go about trying to start engaging and figuring out who their stakeholders are?

[4:51] Kevin Sehlmeyer: Well, this is the one thing that's pretty interesting about the fire service. Think about this, the fire service, whether it's a rural, suburban, or urban setting, they know their stakeholders. They interact with their stakeholders every day. So you've got a good idea of what's going on in your community. Then you need to start looking at what are some of the risk factors. But more importantly, and I'll look at fatal fires in the state of Michigan, in 2017, was appointed as the state fire marshal by the governor, I was asked, hey, you gotta reduce fire fatalities across the state, interact with the fire service, spend the training money and reduce fire fatalities. Those are the big three that I was asked to focus on. I didn't know at the time what I didn't know. And where I'm going with that, I had a lot of people who were giving me, we have historically had a lot of fire fatalities in the state of Michigan. Of course, we are the 10th most populated state. So I don't know when you start looking at population, you have a higher risk, right? But one of the things that we started looking at was a lot of people said it would be, it's gonna be rentals, it's gonna be places that aren't taken care of, and quite the opposite. You're most at risk in Michigan to die in a home you own while you're aging in place. So it's kind of interesting once you start to look at some of those things, and even so that we're even dialing it in, you're more apt to die in a fire in the state of Michigan if you're a male in a home you own that's between 700 and 1100 square feet. So when you start, if you wanna say winding that down some, Now you can start to look at it and you can say, wait a minute, I got pocket neighborhoods that are made up of seniors, of that size home, the age of the home, the majority in Michigan, you're more apt to die on a home that was built 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s. So when you start really taking that information and then leveraging the data, and that's getting it from the census and a whole bunch of other places, even from your assessor's office, now you can start targeting where you're going to go to even install alarms, to educate. Because it's not just alarms. A home fire safety visit is just as important as putting up alarms.

[6:50] Kevin Sofen: At TSI two years ago, Dr. Lori Moore, you know, this show, we talk a lot about technology, but she had this one slide up saying, some of the best technology that we're still not using yet. Not fully using to the full extent. And she showed a photo of a smoke alarm, a sprinkler, the unmet closing door, and then the HVAC closing duct. The dampers. It was kind of, it struck me of thinking, wow, a lot of people wouldn't necessarily look at that as quote unquote tech, but it is amazing tech that's still not fully utilized. What are some of your observations or insights about why some of those technologies are not fully utilized? And I mean, here we're at this convention center, highly regulated, the chance of us dying in a fire in this building, I say are very low, not impossible, but low. And we talked about in the homes, it's sort of, we maybe kind of are a little complacent and some of these basic things we kind of overlook. Why is it that some of those technologies are still maybe overlooked and not implemented at scale?

[7:47] Kevin Sehlmeyer: Well, I think, you know, as we were talking about kind of what we're going to talk about today, right? I mean, we talked about some of the prep. You know, the fact that we have smoke alarms in homes that have a nine volt battery that the battery is going to be dead within a year, and now there's a human factor, you have to replace the battery. Well, we've been putting up 10 years sealed smoke alarms. And in fact, FEMA won't even give a grant to a fire department unless you put up 10 years. So, but I'm still amazed by how many homes still have nine volt smoke alarms in there. And that's really where we're kind of making a push is, okay, so that's technology, let's take the human factor having to change the battery out of it, right? That might increase. When you start to look at, am I gonna probably get residential sprinklers in all those homes built in the 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s? No, but what if I could get residential sprinklers put in homes from this day moving forward? I think that, you know, 60, 70 years from now, you would see, you know, see a change. And then you look at some of the other technology, you know, really, if you think about smoke dampers, isn't that very similar to what UL is talking about and close your door before you dose? Compartmentizing the fire, right? Limiting the spread of the fire. So when you start to look at some of those things, these are things that are assessable, but probably the biggest factor that we could have is from the education side. And I really think that we need to look at, you know, we educate our firefighters about flow path and we talk about, you know, the way that today's furnishings burn and how the, you know, how fast the fire grows and then it runs out of oxygen and starts going the other way. Well, are we being realistic with the occupants that, hey, that same oxygen that's going, level that's going down because the fire's getting smaller? Is the oxygen you needed to escape? And that's what I see as being the state fire marshal for now seven years is that looking at it and saying, The majority of the people who are trying to escape are not getting all the way out. In a lot of ways, they probably went the wrong way. And when I say went the wrong way, we're creatures of habit. Just like when you go home to home, you're gonna probably walk in either your front door or your side door or your back door. It's probably the same door that you use most of the time. Unfortunately, in a fire, what do you think about? I gotta get to that door. In Michigan, so far this year, and it's been consistent the whole seven years, the majority of the people of the fatal fires in Michigan start in the living room. So the living room or the front door is not an option. Going to the seat of the fire or going to the room of origin is not a good thing. So the idea here is that, you know, we teach kids in school escape routes. I believe that we need to be teaching the escape routes to our senior citizens. We need to be teaching escape routes to really all of society. If and then, if I have a fire I'm going to do, then I will do this. And many times going to a window is going to get you out of that building a whole lot faster and putting a door between you and the fire.

[10:33] Kevin Sofen: It's maybe not something that has been talked about in modern media in the sense of the movies as well as just kind of modern education but that idea that I've seen from you all of clothes before you doze create that barrier and as you're saying I mean just creating that time to maybe even you know open the window and put your head outside to with the effort of creating more time for the firefighters who are responding to your call to ultimately save you.

[11:00] Kevin Sehlmeyer: Right. And you know that's the other thing if we're gonna teach the public to go to a window to escape then I got to make sure the fire department's good at throwing ladders too. So you know and that's what I look at as the state fire marshal in Michigan. I'm also the director of training in the state of Michigan and I say that when I get out and speak before the chiefs groups and the instructors and the inspectors hey listen you're starting to see us teach fire behavior to citizens, which means that a citizen, their best way of surviving a fire may be closing that bedroom door or already having it closed and if the fire's on the other side, it's not going towards or into the fire area, it's going out that window. But you also need firefighters doing 360s on buildings, you also need firefighters who are making rescues.

[11:39] Kevin Sofen: So across the state of Michigan, and I'd love to know microcosm of Michigan and then macro of the country, how can we motivate more fire departments to embrace CRR principles and kind of double down on these public education outreach efforts that really work?

[11:57] Kevin Sehlmeyer: Well, I think part of it too is, and I shared this yesterday when I spoke at the panel, that I believe there's a direct correlation with community risk reduction and also mental health of first responders. If you arrive at a fire and everybody's out of the building, it's a totally different fire. We're still gonna put out the fire, we're still gonna do our job, but it's totally different. When you arrive at a fire and folks are trapped and maybe we don't, we make the rescues, but the folks don't survive, it has an impact on our first responders. So when you start looking at, is community risk reduction, oh, that's fire prevention, that's stop, drop, and roll, that's go to the schools. No, that's not what we're talking about. Community risk reduction is get everybody out of these buildings so that we can fight fire really in a different mode. We're not in the rescue mode. And it's not to say that somebody still couldn't be in there. Firefighters are always gonna do rescue, right? We use our acronym, RECEO, and there's a good reason for that. But we also need to look at it, we need to say, you know what, if everybody's out, fires go totally different. And I saw that when I was a battalion chief in Grand Rapids. The fire where the family met me in the driveway and they were even holding the dog and the cat and they were all together, that fire went totally different than when I was arriving and the neighbors were saying there's a family trapped in there. So community risk reduction is really about how do we involve everyone in the community And everyone is even the first responders.

[13:15] Kevin Sofen: And you'd mentioned within your role now at the fire marshals and in this organization that you're part of IFMA, kind of from a high level, what is IFMA and maybe kind of what role does it play within this conversation within fire education, fire safety for the fire service community at large and what is NFPA's role within IFMA?

[13:34] Kevin Sehlmeyer: So IFMA is the acronym for it's International Fire Marshals Association. There's 38 chapters in the United States. So there should be 50 chapters, we got some work to do, but there's 38 chapters currently. The idea here is that IFMA is providing the latest education we're providing guidance to a lot of these chapters because what happens with a lot of organizations, you know, somebody's a president for a year and then somebody else is a president the following year and those type of things. But the majority of our chapters, they're also the same ones that are providing like continuing education for fire inspectors back in their state. What we're starting to see is we're seeing more those fire marshal type groups at the state level or fire inspector groups of saying hey community risk reduction is part of how do we incorporate that how do we bring that in and then what you're also seeing even under the NFPA standard 1300 is they're talking about having a company officer inspection level right so you know think about it that is really bringing it out into the suppression side of it where maybe it was just all the well fire prevention does that it's not just one or two individuals it's it's really a whole team approach to it. And so we're there to support those groups so that they can be successful in their states. And ultimately, I mean, the title or the name should, it says international, we got to do a better job of how do we get more and more chapters.

[14:51] Kevin Sofen: We were recruiting Australia last night.

[14:53] Kevin Sehlmeyer: Yeah, we were working on Australia pretty hard last night. We were. And that, you know, to me is, I think that's the, there's a lot of stuff that's going on in a lot of different countries and different things, but it's all, it's all one big world, right? So how do we support each other?

[15:06] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, One World and as a kind of ringing in my ears, Lori's comments of one voice. When you hear that term one voice and all these organizations, these three and four letter groups, dot orgs, that I need to use across public safety, in your words, when you hear that one voice and in Lori's message that she's been pushing and really that I've seen them adopting, what is the one voice in your opinion?

[15:27] Kevin Sehlmeyer: Well, it's making sure that we're all saying the same thing. And it's not, this is the voice of Michigan or this is the voice of South Carolina. This is, ideally it should be, this is the same message that we're pushing out. And that, and it's one thing I got to really, with Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell, she has really taken us as a whole holistic fire services and we need to get on the same page. And she's spot on. When we all get on the same page, we're going to be able to accomplish a whole lot of really cool things. And that is, you know, it's hard. You know, groups are saying, well, that isn't necessarily what maybe we want. And you know, I think sometimes you have to look at, even when you look at community risk reduction, you know, well, we really don't have that problem. Okay, well then what are your problems? And then what are you gonna do to address that part of it? So it's gonna be a moving target that we're after, but, and I'm excited when NERIS rolls out here that what's the new data that we're gonna be able to collect from our fire reports.

[16:20] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, expand on NERIS a bit for a little bit. In your words and high level, I've asked you this a few times, but what is NERIS in your words and why is it something that will benefit the fire service?

[16:29] Kevin Sehlmeyer: Well, you know, I shared with you earlier, I showed you on our app to 57 people have died from 55 fires in Michigan. I can tell you that 72% of the people that died so far this year, so I'm talking January 1 to June 19th, okay, have died from living rooms or where the seat of the fire is, right? I shared 17% don't have a working smoke alarm. I can't get that out of M First right now. So if I go back and take the fire reports and I came from a pretty good size city in Grand Rapids in Michigan, I filled out my fair share of reports, all right? It didn't go deep enough, so to speak. So the way that I'm able to give you this data that I've been sharing with you in Michigan is we're using, it's an app and it has tile down. So if you answer a question this way and then I ask you the next one, and was the person trying to escape? Yes. Does the person experiencing any disabilities? And so we're gathering that stuff as it's coming down. And what I see coming out of nearest is what is going to be very similar to that. And you're gonna be able to do it on a phone. And I haven't ran into a firefighter yet that doesn't have a phone. Now, 10 years ago, that might've been a different story. Heck, most firefighters have two phones today, right? You have the work phone and you have your own phone. So I think that's gonna be a game changer that when that's how we're getting the data, the fire investigators in Michigan are using their phone to give me the fatal fire stuff. Imagine we take that over to every emergency incident and you literally can be your company officer riding back on an engine and you're got your phone out or you got the tablet out and you're already doing your report. That's gonna be a game changer.

[17:57] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, he's making it easier, more ergonomic, talking about the human factors. It's not just click as little buttons as possible to get the report sent in, but making it easy to click the right amount of buttons to get the right amount of data to then, ideally, make it useful. Make it usable data that can show you and kind of, not necessarily have it using it to validate your existence, but helping it validate what your department's working on and then use that to understand trends, to understand what are these other risks that we can look at to identify that, hey, we should double click into this more and focus a bit on this particular risk area.

[18:31] Kevin Sehlmeyer: Well, and a lot of people don't know this from NERIS, every fire department in the United States is gonna have their own dashboard. So when you're putting stuff in the nearest, it's actually gonna be populating up on your dashboard. And oh, by the way, you're gonna be able to put your logo, you're gonna put your, it's kinda gonna be like your landing page maybe on your website right now, right? Yeah. But you're gonna be able to see how many medicals the Grand Rapids Fire Department has had year to date. You're gonna be able to see how many, you know, extrications you've been to. You're gonna be able to see how many structure fires you've been to. So I give you an example of this. I asked my MFRS person. She's been doing a great job for me here in Michigan. Ronna does a great job for me day in and day out. I said break it down how many vehicle fires we had and we had like 4,600 vehicle fires in the state of Michigan last year. So what's the next question you're gonna ask me? Well how many of those were electric vehicles? I don't know because MFRS doesn't allow you to break that down. I'm confident that NERIS is gonna allow me to break that down. And same thing with mobility devices. You know, we've had some fires. I had a fire in a nursing home two years ago, actually with a fatality from a mobility device that caught on fire in the person's room. Like a wheelchair that was charging. So, you know, technology is going to continue to emerge. There's going to be things, but I think we need to look at some of those things and we need to say, hey, how do we charge things? Are we cutting off egress paths if I charge my scooter out by my door again?

[19:51] Kevin Sofen: I know New York is in the middle of pioneering the response and the regulations and pushing for better regulations on this right now whether they wanted to or not. there's this new risk and whether it was lightweight construction materials or lithium-ion battery fires for cars or now micromobility these are all new risk and first responders are commonly you know having to be the ones just figuring it out.

[20:13] Kevin Sehlmeyer: Yeah well you talk about so let's go back to community risk reduction that's how we all started right but so NERIS is gonna allow us to break it down and say there was a fire on a scooter hey if you buy an XYZ scooter when you replace the battery you should buy an XYZ battery but that's not what we do is you know we go to online and we find the cheapest one we can. That's where we're seeing a lot of these fires. So we talk about community risk reduction, maybe it's educating folks. Listen, the cheapest battery isn't always the best deal and in fact the cheapest battery has been you know the cause of many of these fires and or even using the right charger with the battery. Who thought we'd be talking about that? But that's what the American Fire Service is going to deal with next.

[20:53] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, well it's important to be talking about these things and looking at how the fire service can play a role in being proactive on this you know that's actually one thing I like about this show in particular you know building safety fire codes I mean it's a lot of being proactive we're not talking about just response it's it's the it's the hundred little things we can do before to be proactive right and I think that's the

[21:13] Kevin Sehlmeyer: you're spot on this is the cool part of bringing the folks who put in the suppression systems and put in the dampers and all this stuff yeah you know that it all has to work too and that's the other part and that's one of the areas I have as a state fire marshal is I have inspectors who are out in facilities, hospitals, nursing homes, schools, colleges, dorms. We want to make sure that the built environment is safe too for folks to occupy.

[21:35] Kevin Sofen: Yeah. All right Kev, two final questions for you and you can answer them in either way and these are kind of curve balls I'm throwing you at the end here but what's something that you're fired up about and excited about right now kind of in the remaining of 2024 and what's something that on the flip side is kind of giving you a little pause and maybe keeping you up at night right now?

[21:55] Kevin Sehlmeyer: So, I will say this. Just yesterday, we were talking, I was talking with some folks back in Michigan, and we know that those are aging in place. Folks that are up there in age are the most vulnerable. I've now got agencies on aging in counties that actually are going to go out there doing Meals on Wheels and other stuff, and they're actually installing smoke alarms. So, I hear that from fire departments. We don't necessarily have a lot of capacity, even in our volunteer fire departments, but I can get neighborhood groups or form coalitions, get them to work with the local fire department and local fire service. And so it's kind of neat to watch that growing. And then more importantly, that we're capturing that data so that we can validate what we're doing is working. So what keeps me up at night is still trying to, what's the best messaging to teach fire behavior to the civilian population of the United States and the world. And I think we need to work on that, But also, we'll say we got some work ahead of us too for the fire service, because I'm not sure the fire service totally gets flow paths with some of the other stuff, so.

[22:55] Kevin Sofen: Yeah. Well, I appreciate what you're doing, the leadership in Michigan and across the country, and from one Kevin S to another Kevin S, I appreciate what you're doing, and until next time.

[23:03] Kevin Sehlmeyer: Yeah, keep up the good work, and look forward to seeing you at the technology conference later in the year.

[23:08] Kevin Sofen: Right on.

[23:08] Kevin Sehlmeyer: Thanks, Kevin. See ya.

[23:12] Kevin Sofen: Thanks for listening to today's episode. What did you think? What'd you learn? Hopefully something, right? Please reach out on social media with your thoughts on this episode and any other suggestions for future content. We look forward to capturing more important stories across public safety and are here at your service.