Episode 228: Navigating Fire Culture & Hazards at COG - The Importance of Psychological Assessment in the Fire Service with Dr. Burton Clark

Episode notes

How can we better understand firefighters' behavior - and why do we need to?

Hello Smart Firefighting Community!

Welcome to another episode of covering real world innovations via interviews with fire service and technology industry experts that empower YOU to develop your very own Smart Firefighting strategy!

In this episode:

Emphasizing the importance of psychological assessment in the fire service to understand firefighter behavior

How early detection screening is the key to mitigating occupational hazards and ensuring firefighter health

Understanding fire culture and the Prometheus paradox

Find out from Dr. Burton Clark - an American Fire Culture Researcher, Author, Speaker, and Instructor.

Dr. Clark talks about the Firefighter Health and Safety 360 Conference, highlighting the importance of tactical patience and tactical pause, the need for psychological assessment in the fire service, and the impact of occupational hazards and early detection screening.

He also touches on the Prometheus paradox in relation to fire hazards, emphasizing the need for a deeper understanding of the psychological aspects of firefighting and addressing occupational risks.

So click play now to hear what he has to share!

Head to www.smartfirefighting.com to discover how SFF accelerates innovation for emergency responders, to find out when our next event is, or review our curated resources!

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Chapters

1. 0:00 Kevin's intro
2. 0:32 Burt Clark joins at COG
3. 1:56 No two fires are the same: Chief Tippett's talk
4. 8:24 Psychological assessment in the fire service
5. 11:09 Fire culture, joking culture and changing risk
6. 13:23 Technology, seat belts and safety habits
7. 14:17 A difficult conversation on response
8. 17:44 Early detection screening: Burt's cancer story
9. 21:30 Enjoy the ride
10. 22:25 The fire culture book and the Prometheus paradox
11. 24:47 New materials and lithium-ion batteries as fire hazards
12. 26:11 Wrap
13. 26:42 Outro

Questions answered in this episode

What is tactical patience and why does it matter in firefighting?

Dr. Burton Clark says tactical patience counters the 'fast' mindset embedded in firefighter DNA. Going too fast can lead to bad outcomes like running stop signs, not wearing seatbelts, or skipping a 360 walk-around. Taking a tactical pause to ask what you have and where you're going helps reduce injuries and fatalities.

Hear it at 2:20

What does Dr. Clark mean by the psychological assessment of firefighter behavior?

He explains that engineering, physics, procedures and training are not solving the problem alone. Firefighters need a deeper dive into why they behave the way they do on the fireground, including understanding the culture that allows risky decisions even when a firefighter's internal voice says something is dangerous.

Hear it at 7:18

Why does Dr. Clark say firefighter fatalities are not heroic?

He argues that unlike police or soldiers facing a thinking adversary, firefighters face chemistry and physics, not an enemy trying to kill them. When a firefighter dies, something went wrong and the system is responsible. Calling it heroic prevents learning from mistakes, unlike aviation which investigates every crash.

Hear it at 14:41

What is the Prometheus paradox in firefighting?

Dr. Burton Clark describes it as the Greek myth where Prometheus stole fire for humans and Zeus cursed mankind so that for every good use of fire, people would also suffer from it. Modern materials like lithium batteries and lightweight plastics are created for benefit, but fire hazards are not considered until later, leaving the fire service unable to handle everything.

Hear it at 23:30

What was the early detection screening process at the conference?

Dr. Clark describes an esophageal cancer screening where a small tube with a balloon is inserted down the throat, inflated, and pulled out. The whole procedure takes about 90 seconds. Kevin Sofen notes firefighters have a 62 percent higher risk of esophageal cancer. Dr. Clark stresses that early detection adds years to life.

Hear it at 17:44

Transcript

Machine transcript of the published audio. Names may be misspelled and some sections are missing.

Ep 228 transcript

Navigating Fire Culture & Hazards at COG - The Importance of Psychological Assessment in the Fire Service with Dr. Burton Clark

Speakers: Kevin Sofen, Dr. Burton Clark

Source: Whisper medium.en machine transcription of the published Podbean audio (no original transcript found in Drive), lightly cleaned. Speakers were separated by voice clustering and then checked and assigned by hand at every speaker change. Gaps where the model returned no usable text are marked [inaudible m:ss].

[0:00] Kevin Sofen: Welcome to the Smart Firefighting Podcast mini-series, posted at the Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments. Today, we're exploring the Firefighter Health and Safety 360 Conference, focusing on the crucial role of psychological assessment of the fire service with Dr. Burton Clark. We'll dive into the importance of tactical patience, early detection screening for occupational hazards and the challenges posed by the fire culture in the Prometheus paradox. Enjoy. Kevin here sitting alongside Dr. Burton Clark with American Fire Culture and the man of many words, many identities, just an all-around amazing person. Burt, how are you doing?

[0:41] Dr. Burton Clark: I'm doing fine. Thank you very much for another technological breakthrough right here in the Masonic Temple.

[0:48] Kevin Sofen: I never thought that I would be making a Smart Firefighting podcast in the Masonic Temple, but here we are.

[0:53] Dr. Burton Clark: Exactly. And it's meant to be.

[0:56] Kevin Sofen: Yeah. What event are we at? What's going on here?

[0:59] Dr. Burton Clark: We are at the Council of Governments. That's the Washington DC, Virginia Council of Governments. This is I think their second or third annual Firefighter Health and Safety 360 Conference. And it's a two-day event. It focuses mostly on cancer prevention, cancer screening, cancer survival, and also psychological safety, psychological health, psychological behavior. So those are the basic topics that are covered here today. And also there's a bunch of vendors that help cover the cost and expenses and there's everything here from getting your SCBA washed to getting a device from Ascent in terms of tracking firefighters. So yeah, it's a great local event. They had almost 300 people registered for it. And it's been two days, great listeners to presenters, and it's just been wonderful.

[1:56] Kevin Sofen: So I had a, there was a really interesting presentation yesterday from Chief John Tippett from the National Fallen Firefighter Foundation, and he had a couple interesting phrases that I wanna read to you, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. But let's start with the first one. He talked about the dynamic of a tactical patience and taking a tactical pause throughout fire ground operations? What do you think about that?

[2:20] Dr. Burton Clark: That makes perfect sense, because as you know, in my research using the SHINE model of organizational culture, SHINE talks about the artifacts, fire trucks, the espoused beliefs, rules and regulations, but then he talks about the underlying culture, and I identified that as the DNA of the fire service, what drives everything we do, and I identified fast, close, wet, risk, injury, and death as the genetic makeup of how we make decisions. And that first one is fast. And what I think Chief Tippett's talking about is fast can get us in trouble. I don't say trouble. Fast can lead to outcomes that we don't want. Going through a stop sign, going through a stoplight, thinking I have to be so fast I can't put my seatbelt on. Going in the front door without doing a 360. Over and over and over again, that our inability to take that tactical pause and say, what do I have, where am I going? Don't just do it blindly, but do it purposefully in terms of what you're trying to accomplish. That's gonna help us reduce our injuries and fatalities.

[3:28] Kevin Sofen: And Chief Tippett mentioned just the dynamic that no two fires are the exact same. And we wanna develop these certain levels of SOPs that we rigidly apply to every fire. but everything's a little different and we need to have some level of flexibility and really human common sense when we approach any fire and not just saying, just because this is happening, we must do that.

[3:51] Dr. Burton Clark: Yeah, and we really do have to be careful about how we use words. I have an aversion to the concept of common sense. When we say that, we think everybody knows it, but there's really no such thing as common sense. Every situation is almost different. So when you're on a fire ground, The kinds of things that has to happen are basically chemistry and physics. But there's a time factor, and depending upon when I arrive, what's at the building, what kind of building it is, how long is it, those kind of things I don't know. So, and also when we say every fire is different, well, for a physician, every human body's different too. So just because every time we practice is different does not give us the excuse of not having sound, rational reason for what we're doing. And if we only do things one way, we can't make those kinds of decisions. So that's a critical step. And as much as the SOPs are important, it's the execution of the SOP. Every fire department's got an SOP that's got to wear your seatbelt. And the driver's responsible for making the person put it on and the officer responsible. But then how come we still don't have people wearing their seatbelts? There's something else going on between our ears that allow us to do that. And it's not, I don't see that firefighter's behavior as their fault. It's that culture that allows them to make the decision not to do it the way I know I should be doing it. A real quick example. Recently, I think the fire was in LA and firefighters were hurt. And one of the firefighters was interviewed afterward on a video. And he was like on the first attack line and they were going in the building and it was piled stock on both sides. And he could only walk single file through there. And he thought, wow, this is kind of dangerous. He actually got to an obstruction, which turned out to be a ladder. And he thought to himself, you know, if I go through here, getting back out, if something happens, it's going to be terrible. But he still went through and sure enough, it happened. They got in, it flashed, a lot of them got burned coming out. So what is it in that firefighter's DNA that even though the little voice in his head said, this is a red flag, he ignored his own red flag and kept going. How do we change that? How do we address that? It's not his fault he kept going. It's not his fault he decided not to go. So my question is, how many times did he exercise that decision not to go forward in rookie school? If he never did, why would we expect him to do that on a fire ground? That's how I would interpret what Chief Tippett is trying to say.

[6:39] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, well said. And further, when he was talking about this tactical patience and tactical pause, and again, needing to learn that, because it's not going in and trying to be the hero isn't always the best initiative. We need to take that tactical pause and think, what are the possible outcomes here? Of course, if there is a chance to save human life, and we can do it in a calculated risk manner, firefighters are gonna go do that. Having said that, there's still this other phrase that Chief Tippett said, which is dominate risk. When you hear that term, usually I hadn't heard dominate risk in that kind of context before. What does that mean to you, to dominate risk?

[7:18] Dr. Burton Clark: Again, I don't wanna put words in Chief Tippett's mind, but for me, what that means is I have, I look at the situation and I know I have more assets that I can apply to this than needed. If my little voice says, I don't have enough assets, I need to slow down until I get those assets. Because not doing that can result in real tragedy on the other end, not only for me, but for the system we're trying to save. So we need more research in terms of why firefighters behave the way they do given certain inputs. We don't understand that. And that's where this whole need for a psychological assessment of our behavior on the fire ground comes in. That's the thing I'm working on right now is trying to get more of that application. We know the engineering and the physics and the procedures and training, but that's not solving the problem. We need to take a deeper dive.

[8:24] Kevin Sofen: Expand on that a bit more in terms of the psychological assessment, in terms of we arrived through a fire scene and what's going through our brain, and a lot of this is embedded into our DNA. You talked about just the Benjamin Franklin mindset of the principles of firefighting, and you'll hear in your book that I can't save you during the day trying. What about our psychological mindset is, in your mind, flawed, and what needs to be kind of rethought and evaluated?

[8:51] Dr. Burton Clark: I wouldn't use the word flawed, right? Because that, there's a connotation that if something is flawed, there's something wrong with it's not what we want. And it goes from the macro to the micro. If, and for example, even in, if we think society in general, every time a firefighter is injured or killed, somehow we think it's heroic. Just that simple fact of thinking it's heroic, that skews everything else we do. Whereas every time an airplane crashes, nobody thinks anything heroic. They think something went wrong. And they do everything they can to find out what went wrong, both from an engineering standpoint and a human factor standpoint. So that's a fundamental macro change that needs to take place. And that trickles down to everything. A firefighter gets ejected or falls out of a fire truck, something went wrong. That's not heroic. but there's a system that allowed that to happen. There's psychology at the individual level. the firefighter not putting their seatbelt on. They would most likely put it on driving to work. They wouldn't let their kids be in the car without their seatbelt on. The officer and the driver not enforcing their seatbelt policy. The officer and driver wouldn't not let their kids be in their car without their seatbelt. So what is it culturally that lets them think that they need to do this? It's not because they're wrong. the way I understand it in my brain, we are addicted to that notion of being fast because it makes us feel good and we get positive reinforcement. The worst thing that can happen in a fire service if you're first due is for the second new engine to beat you in or somebody to steal your fire, right? That's all part of that psychology that's deep down embedded. And then the elected officials wanna know why we're not at a fire station in 60 seconds. Well, maybe we need to make sure or all the doors on the fire truck are closed, all those kinds of things. So everybody plays a role in this dysfunctional thinking that leads to bad outcomes.

[11:09] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, and even earlier this morning, Chief Dennis O'Neill had mentioned the importance of the radio chatter when you were first on scene and what you were communicating to the second and third arriving units to be able to communicate what's going on succinctly without, even if there's something unfortunate or in a situation at hand, not communicating something that's going to incite maybe more fear to cause the second and third arriving units to drive more fast, to drive unsafe. Another thing Deputy Chief Shawn Downs had mentioned, he had said that part of the, just the evolution of the fire service and his fire service of thinking of, you know, it used to be around, hey, how much smoke can you tolerate to breathe? and having soot on your PPE was a sign of how much work, how dirty, and how many reps you've gotten. And if someone's gear was clear and clean, it was sort of like, oh, you were hanging out on the lawn. And it was sort of just kind of like joking around, but there's some of this, the way we communicate, as well as just the kind of the joking culture, but I think some of that's changing, but obviously some of that still may be embedded, but what are your thoughts on that?

[12:19] Dr. Burton Clark: are getting better. I mean, I don't think our risk is reducing because of the built environment, what people are putting in there, the toxic environment, all the gases that come off of lithium-ion batteries today. We're still just learning what the heck that means and we're going to have more and more of that every place we go. So, we don't have the luxury of performing it any anything less than a hundred percent right, a hundred percent of the time by everybody on the fire ground by everything that they do. That's probably more important in terms of our measure of success than what actually happens on the fire ground. Because we're less in charge of the outcome than we are in charge of how we behave. Our behavior determines the outcome. So we need to be measuring our performance at 100% right 100% of the time. That should be our concentration. not who got the fire, not who got there first. Did everybody follow the SOPs in terms of executing the job?

[13:23] Kevin Sofen: And actually this morning, Dennis O'Neill had mentioned, while he talked about the benefits of technology and how technology could be used, let's say for example, the Ascent Integrated Tech indoor localization and while it's great and how it has a huge benefit to support written May Day initiatives, Dennis had mentioned that technology is great and we need it, and this can continue to be a piece of our puzzle, but oftentimes we can't only rely on technology, and oftentimes the human behavior is the weak link.

[13:53] Dr. Burton Clark: 100%. Seat belts, every fire truck's got seat belts in them, but if you can't get them to click them in, they're not gonna work. When you read the NIOSH reports, people leave their radio on a fire truck. What makes us think they won't leave their ascent device on a fire truck and not have it on them? So we need to make sure that we do everything, that's the idea. 100% right, 100% of the time.

[14:17] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, Chief O'Neill had also mentioned part of this was in talking about how to respond after a line of duty death. But just in general, within every day, we kind of need to have that Boy Scout mentality of expect the best, prepare for the worst. But he said, you are not invincible and you can suffer. in that sort of challenging a little bit, this hero mindset, how does that, what are your thoughts?

[14:41] Dr. Burton Clark: This is a very difficult conversation to have. You know, I don't know all the answers, the older I get to realize I know less and less, and culture change is very difficult. We want to remember and honor, you know, our fallen brothers and sisters, but at the same time, we don't want it to happen. And a lot of people compare firefighters to police officers and soldiers. But I think that's an unrealistic comparison because if you're a police officer or a soldier, there is another human being trying to kill and hurt you. That's different than being a firefighter. No one is trying to hurt and kill us unless it's a criminal kind of activity. It's a chemistry and physics thing. We are not competing against a knowledgeable foe. It's chemistry and physics. So that's what I think will help us get away from this hero notion, right? If we want police officers and soldiers to be heroes, that's more understandable to me than a firefighter fatality. That's an occupational injury like any other occupation. And when a firefighter dies, something went wrong and we are responsible for that. We can take care of their family. you can love their family, but we do not get exonerated just because we have this ceremonialization of this person's death. We can't use that as an excuse, right? And that's a hard philosophical discussion to have, but at least we're starting to talk about it, and that's a step in the right direction.

[16:19] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, and you were often one beating the drum out there and keep starting it, so I appreciate you, Burt. And I've heard you say oftentimes occupational hazards, occupational fatalities, occupational obstacles. And part of this, we're here at the Health and Safety Summit and shout out to Deputy Chief Sean Downs, who's really helped pull us together with the whole COG team. But there's been a lot of this conversation about not just the tech, but of the hundred little things you can do for best practices before, during, and after a fire incident. And part of it from donning a dock in PPE, showering, just using the wipes, wearing the hoods. And you can speak a lot about that. But one thing that we both have done at this conference was we both got an early detection screening of esophageal cancer. And there was some stat that actually I got a photo of. I think the stat was, let me pull it up here. Firefighters have a 62% higher risk of developing esophageal cancer, which is crazy and unfortunate. But the whole idea is, hey, how can we continue to mitigate those risks and make that 60% closer to zero? Having said that, there's still this inherent, we can't be ignorant and we can't kind of ignore that there are some of these higher occupational risks. This early detection screening process that we both did, what is it, why is it an important thing to integrate within the fire service psyche? And yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

[17:44] Dr. Burton Clark: Well, I'm a cancer survivor because I did my annual PSA tests and I was detected early. So I survived, right? I have my skin cancer tests every year. I got three stents in my heart, you know, so I have to have, so I'm a poster child for early intervention, giving me extra time in my life to do things that I would never had done before if I hadn't had that opportunity. And being a firefighter is risky, it's dangerous, but we can do things before doing and after and throughout our career to help lower our risk and the risk to the people around us. I think that psychological application of understanding who we are will be a big benefit to us in the 21st century, because that's been the missing piece, I think, all along. The engineering we've solved, the SOPs we've solved, but now we need another step, because psychology helps us understand the mind and behavior. And we're not like anybody else. We're not like cops, we're not like soldiers. So we need to be studied for ourselves under our conditions. And that'll be a big benefit to us understanding why we do what we do and how we can do better.

[19:05] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, well said. And I think just to, one, I wanna dive into the lucid thing a little bit more. We can both speak on this, but what was the process like? You signed, you filled out the paperwork and what was it like and then what's gonna happen?

[19:19] Dr. Burton Clark: firefighters or my wife would call me chicken shit all the time because we may run into a burning building, but then when we want to do something as simple as going to have a test where we get scared. So basically, it's a small tube. They put down your throat with a balloon on the end. They blow it up, they drag it out. The whole procedure probably takes about 90 seconds. But as they're putting it down, you do feel something going down your throat. If you do have a gag reflex, you'll know about it. And they say you can't eat for two hours before you take the test but then in my case I drank water she said drink water and it went down and as soon as it got past the back of my throat it didn't bother me anymore it was down there coming back out again it was a little unusual, felt different. She said, hold your breath. It came out in 20 seconds and it was over. So it's a very doable kind of thing. I've had pops removed from a colonoscopy screening. So don't be afraid of it. Just do it adds years to your life. You can be with your family and loved ones and you may even get the right of book as a result of extending your time and time on this earth with everybody else. Yeah. Just do it.

[20:27] Kevin Sofen: Yeah. No, well said. I was, it's funny. I felt the same, you know, it's that down. It's almost like it's a little scary, but it's sort of like, okay, well, there is modern science for a reason. And I believe in this early detection is cure mentality and it just, it's something that it's, it's made available. I know Lucid has continued to make it available free for firefighters. They show up to the fire station. So if this is something that you're thinking about, strongly recommend you, right? Reach out to Lucid. We're going to and hopefully have the COO on the podcast. He's talking about the DNA methodology as well as just kind of the importance and how simple it is. So yeah, then I guess just, I know that the sound in here in the Masonic Temple may not have been the best. The break is gonna probably happen in just maybe two, three minutes, but I guess final parting thoughts from Burt. You know, what would you, maybe a different way to spin on this. What would you say to the volunteer firefighter, Burt Clark, you know, from when you first started, and then, you know, what would be a message that you would tell your former early firefighter self?

[21:30] Dr. Burton Clark: Enjoy the ride. I mean, I did from day one, from the day I walked in the firehouse at the Kentland Voluntary Fire Department in 1970 to the day I retired out of the National Fire Academy in 2014 and even been here today. You know, it's all about honoring the past, celebrating the precious present being right here, making a difference. Somebody listening to this may decide to go get the test and it could save their life Or put their seat belt on they never did before and I don't know what that's going to be But I know something good will come of this and if I can help spread that you know, I've done what I was supposed to do here on earth and Yeah, it's it's a brotherhood. It's a sisterhood It's a noble calling and I'm blessed to be part of it and I encourage people to get involved with it You're only limited by your own innovation, creativity, interest, drive, and just enjoy the journey.

[22:25] Kevin Sofen: Very well said, and I'm flipping through your book, I wanna actually find the spot where it shows all the different chapters, but maybe I'll just kinda flip to a random one, but if you were gonna suggest any particular chapter for someone to read, and again, I know we'll be giving some.

[22:45] Dr. Burton Clark: Probably the culture chapter. I mean, the culture chapter is one of my most significant breakthrough ideas in terms of using that Edgar Schein model to understand who we are, why we behave the way we do, and that the fire service is only a small part of the overall societal fire culture. But we need to lead it more. We just can't wait for them to call us. We need to be out in front of it.

[23:14] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, I mean, I'm seeing here with fire culture, I mean, you've got 10 or so short stories, and I've read most of them, but one that I do love in particular, and maybe closing thoughts before the room opens, is the Prometheus paradox in a short little final statement. What is the Prometheus paradox in your words?

[23:30] Dr. Burton Clark: Well, the story of Prometheus is that humans were just like any of the other animals, and Prometheus was a demigod that stole fire from the gods and gave it to man. And because of that, man became almost like the gods, because we had the knowledge of fire. Zeus was pissed at Prometheus for stealing fire, chained him to a rock for his eternity, sent an eagle to eat on his liver every day and in the nighttime, his liver would regrow. But then Zeus cursed mankind. He said, for every good thing you do with fire, you will suffer. Your homes will burn, your family will burn, your crops will burn. So that curse of Zeus, as silly as it may sound, continues. We use fire to help us survive. Even if you watch Oppenheimer, it was all about fire. And they mentioned they had Prometheus in there in terms of the curse. That's every day, right? We have a cell phone, but the cell phone can catch fire and burn your house down, right? That's the ying and the yang of man creating materials, and unfortunately, the fire aspect of it is not thought of until way after the problem starts.

[24:47] Kevin Sofen: It was like that thing you told me today of that amazing material from MIT that's as light as a feather and strong as steel.

[24:53] Dr. Burton Clark: That's exactly right. Sounds great, but what happened when it gets on fire? Yes, I mean, lithium batteries were created in the late 60s, early 70s, but they didn't become a problem recently. But they knew they were fire hazard way back then. But the fire service was not looking in that direction. It took that long for it to get to be a problem because most of the time when society builds something or creates something, fire is not thought of until near the end. And then the fallback position is if it fails we can always call the fire department. Well lithium-ion on batteries, cladding on buildings outside, proves to us we can't handle it. And that's dysfunctional to us. We think we can handle everything, but guess what? We can't handle everything. We're not, they couldn't handle the fires in Texas, right? The brush fires in Texas. So mother nature and the gods are telling us we can't handle everything. We need help to build in fire protection in way up front before it gets into society where now it's a tragedy, lithium-ion batteries and maybe this next product, plastic materials, the lightest plastic, but stronger than steel, making buildings out of it.

[26:11] Kevin Sofen: What happens when you light it on fire or thank you so much for your context and your insights and just friendship and everything we're doing together.

[26:19] Dr. Burton Clark: Hey, you're, if it wasn't for you guys, I wouldn't be here and you're, you're using the technology to make it all work. I couldn't get my damn phone to work in here.

[26:26] Kevin Sofen: High tech, high tech, high touch, right?

[26:28] Dr. Burton Clark: Yeah, high tech, high touch. That's exactly right.

[26:30] Kevin Sofen: Hey, Burt, I appreciate you, man, and look forward to seeing you next month in Indianapolis, as well as just continuing to stay in touch and collaborating on some of these projects.

[26:38] Dr. Burton Clark: Thanks, Kevin.

[26:38] Kevin Sofen: Till next time. Thanks for listening to today's episode. What did you think? What'd you learn? Hopefully something, right? Please reach out on social media with your thoughts on this episode and any other suggestions for future content. We look forward to capturing more important stories across public safety and are here at your service.