Smart Firefighting Podcast

Episode 220: FAA & First Responders: A Flying Alliance with Michael O’Shea

Published

Guests: Michael O'Shea

Topics: Drones & Robotics, Leadership

Episode notes

How has the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) evolved, and what's their focus now?

Hello Smart Firefighting Community!

Welcome to another episode of covering real world innovations via interviews with fire service and technology industry experts that empower YOU to develop your very own Smart Firefighting strategy!

Welcome back to this 20-episode Texas Robotics Summit Mini Series! This 4 day event (March 4-7, 2024) was hosted at the Reveille Peak Ranch and by our friends at Granite Defense , and showcased the use of robotics (air/water/ground) in public safety via keynote presentations, training scenario stations, roundtable conversations, and more.

In this episode:

FAA's collaboration with first responders on drone use

Legal frameworks for operations beyond visual line of sight

Prioritizing the first responder mission in the development of drone technology

Find out from Michael O'Shea - the Program Manager at the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) UAS Integration Office.

Mike talks about the FAA's involvement with public safety and the evolving relationship between the FAA and first responders. We also explore flying beyond the visual line of sight and how first responders can do so within the proper legal framework. Mike shares upcoming events and programs related to public safety and drones, emphasizing the importance of prioritizing mission over technology. He ends the chat with a message about the significance of airspace safety.

So click play now to hear what he has to share! And stay tuned for the next Mini Series episode!

Head to www.smartfirefighting.com to discover how SFF accelerates innovation for emergency responders, to find out when our next event is, or review our curated resources!

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Chapters

  1. 0:00 Kevin's intro: the Texas Robotics Summit mini-series
  2. 0:45 Mike O'Shea joins on day two
  3. 1:16 Presenting in person at the summit for the first time
  4. 2:24 How the FAA is involved with public safety
  5. 5:08 How the FAA and first responder relationship has evolved
  6. 6:45 Flying beyond visual line of sight within the legal framework
  7. 10:12 Drone as first responder in Texas
  8. 11:25 Sun, heat and sunscreen on the ranch
  9. 11:44 Upcoming conferences and events
  10. 13:27 Being the bridge between the FAA and public safety
  11. 15:07 Advice for public safety operators working with the FAA
  12. 17:14 Public safety has been a great partner
  13. 18:45 What's on slide one: airspace safety
  14. 19:13 Parting thought: the mission drives the technology
  15. 20:02 Closing thanks

Questions answered in this episode

What is Michael O'Shea's role at the FAA?

Michael O'Shea is the public safety liaison with the Federal Aviation Administration. He works to help public safety agencies understand FAA requirements and operate drones safely and legally within the national airspace.

Hear it at 2:44

What are the main ways public safety can fly drones beyond visual line of sight?

Michael O'Shea describes four or five ways. Drone as a first responder launches from a fixed point with an observer monitoring airspace. Tactical beyond visual line of sight allows flying out 1,500 feet while staying within 50 feet of the ground or buildings. Drone as a first responder with associated elements uses camera systems instead of a roof observer. Beyond visual line of sight obstruction shielding allows flying up to two miles while staying within 50 to 200 feet of obstructions. Finally, agencies can call the Systems Operations Support Center 24-7 during emergencies to get airspace cleared immediately.

Hear it at 6:49

How has the relationship between the FAA and public safety evolved?

Michael O'Shea says when he first attended conferences representing the FAA, people booed and were not friendly. Now people take pictures with him. He credits this to both sides understanding each other better. The FAA now understands public safety missions, and public safety understands that FAA requirements are driven by airspace safety.

Hear it at 13:33

What is Michael O'Shea's advice to technology companies building products for public safety?

He says the mission must drive the technology, not the technology drive the mission. Companies should listen to end users first, figure out what their mission is, then build technology for that mission rather than inventing something cool and trying to make it fit public safety needs.

Hear it at 15:31

Why does the FAA require certain procedures that may seem unnecessary?

Michael O'Shea says if an FAA requirement makes your eyebrow go up, remember that the FAA's primary mission is safety. There is probably a safety reason behind it. He encourages people to ask why rather than assume the requirement is pointless.

Hear it at 16:27

Transcript

Machine transcript of the published audio. Names may be misspelled and some sections are missing.

Ep 220 transcript

FAA & First Responders: A Flying Alliance with Michael O’Shea

Speakers: Kevin Sofen, Michael O'Shea

Source: Whisper medium.en machine transcription of the published Podbean audio (no original transcript found in Drive), lightly cleaned. Speakers were separated by voice clustering and then checked and assigned by hand at every speaker change. Gaps where the model returned no usable text are marked [inaudible m:ss].

[0:00] Kevin Sofen: Welcome to a 20-episode mini-series at the Texas Robotics Summit hosted by our friends at Granite Defense. We dive into the evolving world of drones and robotics in public safety aviation. Through 20 fantastic conversations with leaders across public safety, from the fire service, law enforcement, EMS operations, wildlife management, and more, we explore the challenges, and the critical role of technology in enhancing emergency services operations. A special thanks to the sponsor of the Smart Firefighting Podcast, W.S. Darley & Company, for making this podcast possible. Enjoy the show. Here, day two, sitting alongside Mike O'Shea, who is the public safety liaison with the Federal Aviation Administration, the FAA. Mike, how you doing?

[0:55] Michael O'Shea: Good, how are you doing?

[0:56] Kevin Sofen: I'm doing well. This is the second time we've crossed paths. first time was at the Technology Summit International, and here we are sitting in a ranch kind of in the middle of nowhere, Texas.

[1:05] Michael O'Shea: We keep meeting in Texas. What's going on with that?

[1:07] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, I don't know. So one of these times, maybe it'll be in the Midwest or West Coast, somewhere besides this state that's basically a country of its own. Yep. So what brings you to the Texas Robotics Summit?

[1:19] Michael O'Shea: So we've actually participated in this conference since its inception, but we've always presented virtually. And so it's weird because I was—the stage I presented on earlier today, I've only seen it through my computer before. So we've always wanted to come out here and present and you know I put in for it every year and this year they approved me.

[1:36] Kevin Sofen: And what has been some of your early takeaways and you know what do you think so far?

[1:41] Michael O'Shea: Well for me I like to talk to people who are using drones and figure out what their issues are running to with the FAA or questions they have or complex operations they want to conduct. When I grow up I want to be like Fred Carlson from the fire department of New York.

[1:53] Kevin Sofen: Don't we all.

[1:55] Michael O'Shea: No, you know, we want to interact with people and we had the opportunity to present three times while we're here So, you know, we've got to talk to a lot of people in part a lot of knowledge I hope and it's good It's always good to get out and so people can put a face with a name and actually realize there are people at the FA It's not you know, Mike O'Shea is not a made-up name for people to contact it. There really is a person

[2:13] Kevin Sofen: He's not a bot, you know, I'm texting. He's real.

[2:16] Michael O'Shea: Yeah, if I was a bot I'd look a lot better than I do

[2:19] Kevin Sofen: Don't cut yourself short, Mike, you know, see the Irish blood in us, you know, that's right

[2:23] Michael O'Shea: That's right.

[2:24] Kevin Sofen: So when I first heard of FAA, it was me being a passenger on planes. But I think now obviously there's this FAA intersection with all things public safety and public safety drone users. What is the FAA's relationship and interaction and maybe even some like misconceptions about how the FAA is involved with public safety?

[2:44] Michael O'Shea: Sure. So the FAA is really their only involvement with public safety back in the day was with basically manned aviation operators. people were operating helicopters or fixed-wing aircraft. And drones was really something that we started working with them when I was still at the Department of Justice. We wrote the first public safety COA that we did to make sure that public safety agencies would have the ability to fly on main aircraft systems. They started the, they realized there needed to be regulations for operators of our main aircraft systems, and I sat on the remote, or not the remote ID, I sat on the Aviation Rulemaking Committee for Part 107, and then we also worked with them on developing some of the guidelines for what that would look like in the future. And then we work with them on the remote ID, aviation rulemaking committee. And then I used to, you know, when I worked for DOJ, you know, I was supporting our public safety agencies there and I would go to the FAA and say, hey, we need to do this and you need to let us do this. And they would say, no. And I'd say, well, do you know who we are? We're the Department of Justice. We catch bad guys. You need to let us do this. And I realized after a while, I wasn't speaking the FAA's language, which is aviation safety. They weren't concerned about catching bad guys. They were concerned about whether or not I was gonna operate in their airspace safely. And so at that point, you know, working with them a lot, they said, hey, you know public safety, you know aviation, why don't you come work here and help us work with public safety? And so the FAA traditionally were known for manned aircraft. And when I first came at the FAA, that was still probably 90% of our mission. And I would say to this day now, it's probably close to an even split in terms of what we do. People working on manned aviation issues, people working on unmanned aviation issues. And there's a lot of people where cross applies to different what we call lines of businesses in the FAA. So you have the air traffic organization, which is the biggest line of business. They obviously deal with manned aircraft, you know, in the facilities, the control towers, but they also deal with letting people operate in airspace, the LAANC system. You know, you request a special governmental interest to operate because you have an emergency, so they allow that too. Then you have, you know, the flight standards division, you have the aviation safety division, which I'm in, which includes the office of unmanned aircraft systems, integration, you have airports, and you have all these different lines of businesses. Well, drones was those one thing that everything crosses all those different lines of businesses. They operate around airports, they operate in airspace. We need to look whether there's a safety case for their operations, so flight standards gets involved. And sort of our job in the Office of unmanned aircraft systems integration within the FAA is to support that mission of people enabling the operation of unmanned aircraft systems, and specifically for me, with public safety.

[5:08] Kevin Sofen: And it's been quite the journey in the past five, 10, maybe 15 years since unmanned aircrafts have really come onto the scene within the public safety space. and I think initially it was commercial drones, but now really hearing all these stories today about how drones and robots are being used, it's come a long way. But I think also the FAA, even the relationship, I think, between the FAA and public safety has come a long way. How has that relationship evolved, and how is it ultimately, you think, strengthening to drive everyone forward safely?

[5:36] Michael O'Shea: We have come a long way. I've been operating drones since 2003, which makes me, I'm old anyway, but it really makes me old in the drone industry. But the FAA really, for them, drones was something that was happening, you know, not really in their space, for lack of a better term. But as it's grown, it became integral to what we do in the national airspace. And you talked about commercial operators or industry operators being sort of the first people to operate drones. But it's amazing public safety have been the technology innovators for what's going on all these, you know, beyond visual line of sight obstruction shielding, which they're using for doing infrastructure inspection came from tactical beyond visual line of sight, you know, drone as a first responder, that's drone in to box operations, you know, public safety is really at the forefront of sort of pushing, you know, the ball down the court and allowing greater operations. And it's fun to be working with them.

[6:22] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, and I mean, there's been so many different use cases and nuances about how first responders are using tech. And I think one with you that I believe I'd love to hear more about because it is trending as it's becoming more, I guess, widely talked about and prevalent is the whole idea of flying beyond visual line of sight. You know, what are, how has that evolved and what are some ways that first responders can now do that in the proper legal framework?

[6:49] Michael O'Shea: Sure, so the beyond visual line of sight operations are operating where you can't see the drone. You're basically sending it down range. So it could be anything from, you know, flying on the back of a building where you're getting ready to serve a search warrant so you can see if there's any deputy eating pit bulls in the backyard or if the bad guys run out the back. Or you're a firefighter and you're working a large warehouse fire. You know, right now, before, beyond visual line of sight, we required you to move your operations so you could maintain visualized sight of that aircraft. But now we have ways you can actually stay in one fixed position, fly that entire warehouse to look for hotspots or ongoing conditions or incidents without having to move your operation. And there's essentially four, maybe five ways you can actually fly beyond visual line of sight as a public safety agency. One is what's commonly called as drone as a first responder. Within the FAA, we call it a first responder beyond visual line of sight. But drone as a first responder was sort of implemented by the Chula Vista Police Department in California, and they essentially have a drone on a roof, and they have a guy up there who's observing the airspace, and in their command center, when they get a 911 call, they launch the drone and it flies out to provide situational awareness on the scene. Well, the second way we sort of allowed it, or do allow it, is what we call Tactical Beyond Visual Line of Sight, and if you have a certificate of authorization, which is also required for drone as a first responder, you can apply for Tactical Beyond Visual Line of Sight, which allows you to fly out 1,500 feet, You stay relatively low to the ground or to buildings within 50 feet-ish. You have a hard ceiling of 400 feet. But the safety for us is the fact that you're so low that if you have an encounter with manned aircraft, you're the least of that manned aircraft's worry. Something else is going on. So it allows public safety operators to go a little farther, to look over the tree line for that lost kid, to work that warehouse fire without moving their operation. And then the next way we have is what we call drone as a first responder with associated elements. And that's essentially where you had the Chula Vista model where you had the guy on the roof. Well, it's very hot to be on the roof, especially if you're in South Texas like here. I'm in the summer and it's expensive to keep that guy on the roof. So what they're doing is they're using what we call associate elements of safety. They're adding greater technologies. In their case, a camera system that allows them to see out two miles and they don't have to have the guy on the roof so they can do remote operations and launch the bird, go to the scene and put it back in essentially a box that charges it and keeps it ready to go. The other way we have that they can operate is what we call beyond visual line of sight obstruction shielding. And that's a part 107 operation that essentially came from tactile beyond visual line of sight. But what it does, it allows you to fly up to two miles. Typically, if your equipment supports it, you can fly beyond visual line of sight, but you have to stay within 50 feet, which is waverable to 200 feet, but you have a hard ceiling of 400 feet. So basically you're flying 50 feet above obstruction or 200 feet above obstruction, but you can no longer, can't go any higher than 400 feet above ground level. And the one issue with that public safety runs into is you have to mitigate the risk for operations over people. So that's important, so you gotta figure out how to do that. And the last way you can operate is if bad things are happening and you need to fly now, you can call our Systems Operations Support Center 24-7, tell them who you are, what the issue is, and they can clear the airspace to grant you authority to fly in it.

[9:55] Kevin Sofen: Wow, that's more than I expected, but I appreciate you laying out the context for all. of different dynamics there. And I think it's sort of, if you want to use drone as a first responder for good and for the right reasons, if you work within the FAA context, there seems like there's a roadmap and a path for you to do that.

[10:10] Michael O'Shea: There are.

[10:11] Kevin Sofen: Yeah. And you had mentioned earlier before the podcast that there was some, maybe the story situation that's evolving with it. Was it Powell line, Texas or Palatine, Texas?

[10:20] Michael O'Shea: Oh, parallel in Texas.

[10:21] Kevin Sofen: parallel in Texas, yeah. What's going on in parallel in Texas?

[10:23] Michael O'Shea: So they're doing the drone as a first responder with associate elements. They basically have in one of their water towers, They have a camera system that looks out two miles that actually can spot things as small as a bird and tell them whether or not it's gonna conflict with their flight. What they have is they have an offenced area behind one of their fire stations and they have a camera that shows that the area's clear. When they get the 911 call, they can launch the bird, whether it's for a police call or a fire call. The bird goes up to whatever altitude, 200 feet, make sure everything's right, it's got all the right GPS signals, then it flies to the destination it needs to go to. And it does use DroneSense, there's a DroneSense guy here, and they use that system to basically get that drone overhead and provide situational awareness, and it works pretty well, and then it comes back into that drone in a box situation lands, and the box closes and starts charging the drone again. The good thing about that project is, like I said, is since they have the camera on the roof, they don't have to have a person on the roof. And sometimes it sounds like the camera's kind of expensive until you start figuring out what it costs to have a person on the roof, and you realize it's not that expensive. And then the other thing is, you know, they got temperatures there that get up to 115 degrees in the summer, and it's not safe, really, to have somebody on the roof.

[11:25] Kevin Sofen: I've been sitting here podcasting and it's March and I was just getting crushed by sun.

[11:29] Michael O'Shea: 83 degree temperatures.

[11:30] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, and I was struggling. I've been chugging water and putting sunscreen on. I've been crumbling. So I mean, it's March 2024 and I mean, you're here. I saw you in December at TSI, but what are some other events or programs or projects in the next couple of months?

[11:46] Michael O'Shea: So we were, two weeks ago, we were at FLOCON, which is the Florida Public Safety Users Conference, which is a great conference to go to if you're in that area, or even if you're not in that area. In fact, there are many people that, from Texas Department of Public Safety were there and from other states that were there. It's really well run. It's at their Florida Tracks site, which is their turnpike system has this big conference facility and testing area. And it was perfect place to have a conference. Next week, we're in, where are we next week? We're in Williamsburg, Virginia for the Drone Responders Conference. 500 attendees already. We'll be on a couple panels there and we'll be working a booth. And then we always like to participate as we can with that. We do a lot of work with Charles Warner and do our podcast and videocast with Charles. And then I think the next conference after that is AUVSI, Association of Unmanned Systems, Uncrewed Systems International. Did I say that right?

[12:35] Kevin Sofen: You say that five times fast.

[12:37] Michael O'Shea: Sorry, it's been a long day, this is my second presentation, and I've also been in the sun. But no, and we'll be at different conferences, we'll probably be at the Airborne Public Safety Association's conference in Houston this summer, and we'll be at the International Association Chiefs of Police Conference in October, and there's a couple other conferences in there between, and then we'll probably be at the fire conference again if they have that again. And then we try to hit as many local things that we can get to by driving or things that we can do in conjunction with other trips. And then we do a lot of one-on-one just talking to public safety or if you have a large public safety agency and you're having an in-service training, we'll call in and sort of give an update on what's going on in your in-service virtually. We do that for Florida, we do that for Texas, we do that for California, New York, and we'll also go to the New York Department of Homeland Security's conference and UAS conference in August. That's also a really good conference.

[13:27] Kevin Sofen: I appreciate you helping to lead the charge. I mean, you are the liaison, so you're helping to really create this bridge.

[13:33] Michael O'Shea: No, I was telling someone earlier, it's kind of amazing, you know, I've been doing this job now seven years, and I came with this job when I was 55 years old, and I almost didn't take it as like, I don't know if I can teach this old dog new tricks, and my wife thought I was a little crazy, you know, switching jobs. I'd been in the Department of Justice for 17 years, and I liked what I was doing. But I was really intrigued by the fact that, you know, the FAA are aviators and you know and for me I'm an aviator but I'm also a public safety person so I thought I could bring something to the FAA by you know participating work with people and realizing you know you there is people you can reach out to that would be helpful and talk to you and be nice you know and get public safety and I was telling somebody the first time I went to a conference from the FAA people booed they were not very friendly and last two weeks ago when I was at the Florida conference people were taking their picture with me and I was like boy what a difference this is.

[14:22] Kevin Sofen: I'm gonna have you sign my chest or something after this.

[14:25] Michael O'Shea: I'm not signing your chest.

[14:27] Kevin Sofen: No, go ahead.

[14:28] Michael O'Shea: But it's changed and I think you know the FAA sort of gets public safety now and I think public safety is getting the FAA now they sort of understand you know our mission and our language is airspace safety your mission is public safety but we're getting that on both sides of the aisle I think in terms of what we do and you know we want public safety be successful because you protect the communities that we live in. So we want you to be successful. We want you to do good things. We want you to catch bad guys, put fires out, and all the other great stuff you guys do. But I think we realize that they're a essential stakeholder to what we do, and we want to make sure we work with them to enable their operations.

[15:03] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, kudos to you. It's so important. I appreciate you creating that bridge. I'd love to kind of hear your message to two stakeholders. One are, you know, how you have talked about throughout the episode, but maybe start with this one first, what would be your message to private industry and entrepreneurs and companies that are thinking about building within this area and then also what would be your message to first responders and kind of how they should approach again you know in working in within the confines within FAA.

[15:31] Michael O'Shea: So when I was a Department of Justice I worked in the Office of Science Technology and my job was basically you know field testing technologies the public safety and so we always had a mantra or at least I had a mantra that was the mission must drive the technology not the technology drive the mission and often we see vendors who invent something really cool to them who try to make it fit with public safety and I always loved the companies and there are a lot of good ones out there that basically say you know we're gonna listen to the end user first figure out what their mission is and then we'll build the technology for that mission and if they do that I think they'll be very successful but if they do it the other way that never seemed to seem you know they never seem to go very far so that I would I would say that to them. For public safety operators what was the question?

[16:13] Kevin Sofen: Just kind of what would you say to public safety operators and how they should approach working within the FAA constraints and not only say constraints as it is a bad thing but also just kind of the how FAA is ultimately trying to like you said sure it's kind of a grind of success.

[16:27] Michael O'Shea: I try to tell people if the FAA tells you do something and it makes your eyebrow go up and you go I wonder why they're making me do that I wonder why we have to do this if you remember that our primary mission is safety there is probably a safety reason we're doing it and often what I can do is if you get those questions like why do we got to do this I can figure out why or talk to somebody and figure out what the safety cases for doing that or if there's not a safety case I can talk to people about like what we can do to get rid of it but I would tell people to you know be honest when you work with the FAA you know we realize you guys often are what we would call new entrants into the aviation world and that you know you're still learning aviation and we get that and but we want to help you do it safely and legally and you know we want you to call us and ask us questions like how do I do this instead of hold my beer watch this that's our biggest fear but I think public safety actually has been a great customer to work with I love working with public safety that I mean I appreciate what everybody does I get what they do I was a firefighter one time and I was obviously sheriff's deputy for a very long time and I want them to be successful with using unmanned aircraft systems and it does amazed me to this day is you know I will tell you a story and this is not me patting myself on the back maybe it is but like in 2003 I got money to start doing initial testing drones and my boss at the time said I don't know why you're doing drones these things aren't going anywhere and I still know him to this day and remind him all the time I'm saying here I am working a job that paid me more than more you than your baby to work specifically on drones that are going everywhere and it really has changed and you know there's a lot of technologies you see come along in public safety that have a they're bright for about two years three years five years but then they burn out and people don't use them anymore this is the one of the few technologies I've seen public safety say this is a game changer we will never go back to not using drones and I specially specifically hear that from the fire side especially the guys are working has material calls they're like I don't know how we ever work that safely without a drone you know I can send that drone Downrange I can see what the UN number on the side of that tanker cars that spewing stuff out I put nobody at risk to do that. I may have to pay if I can't decontaminate the drone I'm out a couple hundred bucks, but you know, that's better than somebody's life. I think it's a technology Like I said, it's here to stay and I'm kind of excited to see where it's gonna go

[18:45] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, and right before the FDNY guys left I had asked Fred Carlson What's a question I should ask it Mike and he said what's on slide one?

[18:53] Michael O'Shea: Slide one of my presentation is always talks about airspace safety, you know Because that's our primary mission within the FAA and I always try to tell people just like I told you before That if you wonder why we're doing something it probably relates to airspace safety And if you put that in your mind if you say oh, that's why they're doing it I bet it has to do with you know, whatever keeping the airspace safe or whatever that you'll get your answer

[19:13] Kevin Sofen: So I've been asking everyone here on the pod this miniseries of sort of a final parting thought whether it's a quote They live by a question a challenge or any sort of statement that you could leave us with here today

[19:25] Michael O'Shea: Wow, thanks for throwing that one in.

[19:28] Kevin Sofen: It also doesn't necessarily have to be public safety related or drug related.

[19:31] Michael O'Shea: I would probably use, well, obviously my favorite expression of all time, those who do learn from history are doomed to repeat it. But in the public safety world, I think, because I work in basically technology, I still say, it's important that the mission drive the technology, not the technology drive the mission.

[19:47] Kevin Sofen: And for that, I will drop the mic. Mike, it's been a pleasure, and thanks again for your support of TSI this past year and being here at the Tech Robotics Summit, and just looking forward to continue to collaborate and follow the work that you're doing. So, keep it up.

[20:00] Michael O'Shea: Great, thanks.

[20:01] Kevin Sofen: Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to this mini-series created at the Texas Robotics Summit, hosted by Granite Defense. Make sure to put this amazing event on your calendar for 2025. For this podcast episode, what did you like? What did you think? Drop us a comment on social media and let us know your favorite quote. Thanks for all that you do and have a great day ahead.