Episode 216: Tech Meets Tradition: Rethinking Boston Fire with Robots with Michael Pavone

Episode notes

How have drones been effectively used in search and rescue operations? Here's some examples:

Hello Smart Firefighting Community!

Welcome to another episode of covering real world innovations via interviews with fire service and technology industry experts that empower YOU to develop your very own Smart Firefighting strategy!

Welcome back to this 20-episode Texas Robotics Summit Mini Series! This 4 day event (March 4-7, 2024) was hosted at the Reveille Peak Ranch and by our friends at Granite Defense , and showcased the use of robotics (air/water/ground) in public safety via keynote presentations, training scenario stations, roundtable conversations, and more.

In this episode:

Putting robotics to the test at Texas Robotics Summit

Drones in Boston Fire's operations and future plans

NIST's impact on robotics adoption and training

Hear from Michael Pavone - the Special Operations Equipment Manager with Boston Fire.

Michael talks about the importance of the summit and how it brings together the latest technology for different missions in public safety. He shares examples of how drones have been used in search and rescue operations in Boston, such as locating a missing autistic child and detecting hot spots in tents during the fentanyl crisis.

Michael also highlights the role of NIST in driving robotics adoption and the importance of training for drone pilots. Lastly, he tells us about his vision for a future where Boston Fire has a dedicated robotics division to enhance its operations.

So click play now to hear what he has to share! And stay tuned for the next Mini Series episode!

Head to www.smartfirefighting.com to discover how SFF accelerates innovation for emergency responders, to find out when our next event is, or review our curated resources!

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Chapters

1. 0:00 Kevin's intro: the Texas Robotics Summit mini-series
2. 0:45 Michael Pavone of Boston Fire joins
3. 1:24 Why Michael keeps coming to the Texas Robotics Summit
4. 2:43 Getting a drone program off the ground
5. 3:15 Finding a missing autistic child
6. 4:28 Hot spots in tents during the fentanyl crisis
7. 6:21 Putting the wet stuff on the red stuff
8. 7:15 The role of NIST in robotics adoption
9. 8:30 How Boston trains its drone pilots
10. 9:25 All roads lead back to Coitt Kessler
11. 9:53 The brotherhood and sisterhood of the drone community
12. 11:02 What's on the radar for 2024
13. 12:42 The vision: a Boston Fire robotics division
14. 13:15 Parting thought: always do better tomorrow
15. 14:09 Closing thanks

Questions answered in this episode

How did Boston Fire Department start its drone program?

Michael Pavone says a large five-alarm fire in Brighton at around 4 a.m. with snow and 30-35 mph winds led to the breakthrough. Visibility was so bad you could not see two feet in front of you blocks away. He put a drone up, and after the commissioner saw what it could do, they held a meeting right away and built out a 24-7 dedicated drone unit with 20 pilots.

Hear it at 5:16

How does Boston Fire use drones to keep firefighters safe during operations?

Michael Pavone explains that drones provide thermal imaging to see fire traveling through black soot, detect deteriorating roofs getting spongy, and give wind direction and speed at 40 feet to help the incident commander predict how fire may spread.

Hear it at 6:39

How did Boston Fire address privacy concerns about drones?

Michael Pavone says DroneSense software stores unmanipulated data that can show exactly where the drone was and where the gimbal was angled. This lets them prove to civilians and city council that drones are not being used improperly and are in compliance with state laws.

Hear it at 1:34

What is beyond visual line of sight with dock stations that Boston Fire is exploring?

Michael Pavone describes a system where a drone stationed at a firehouse can fly through a 5G network to a neighbor's incident faster than crews arrive, size up the situation, and then be passed off to the drone unit on scene.

Hear it at 11:25

What is Michael Pavone's vision for robotics at Boston Fire?

He hopes to build a robotics division with drones, underwater ROVs, and systems that can help the HAZMAT team and special operations, serving as another greater asset in the toolbox.

Hear it at 12:55

Transcript

Machine transcript of the published audio. Names may be misspelled and some sections are missing.

Ep 216 transcript

Tech Meets Tradition: Rethinking Boston Fire with Robots with Michael Pavone

Speakers: Kevin Sofen, Michael Pavone

Source: Whisper medium.en machine transcription of the published Podbean audio (no original transcript found in Drive), lightly cleaned. Speakers were separated by voice clustering and then checked and assigned by hand at every speaker change. Gaps where the model returned no usable text are marked [inaudible m:ss].

[0:00] Kevin Sofen: Welcome to a 20-episode mini-series at the Texas Robotics Summit, hosted by our friends at Granite Defense. We dive into the evolving world of drones and robotics in public safety aviation. Through 20 fantastic conversations with leaders across public safety, from the fire service, law enforcement, EMS operations, wildlife management, and more, we explore the challenges, investments in the critical role of technology in enhancing emergency services operations. A special thanks to the sponsor of the Smart Firefighting Podcast, W.S. Darley & Company, for making this podcast possible. Enjoy the show. We are officially in the double digits of the Smart Firefighting Podcast here at the Texas Robotics Summit. Grateful to be sitting next to Michael Pavone, the Special Operations Equipment Manager with Boston Fire. Michael, what's going on?

[0:57] Michael Pavone: First of all, I thank you very much for having me. This is a great show you have. Now that I'm just enjoying the time here at Texas Robotics, you're constantly learning from people in public safety, law and fire department. You have some of the greatest technology in the world here present. And Granite Defense does an unbelievable job putting this on to nonprofit organization. And they do an amazing job of bringing everybody together for different missions, whatever your organization does.

[1:24] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, and shout out to Granite and just kind of for those not here, what's this kind of whole summit like and why is it important to someone like Boston Fire Department to come to the Texas Robotics Summit?

[1:34] Michael Pavone: Well, the first time I came was a couple years ago and we were just starting out the drone program. And like every organization, a lot of hurdles we had to overcome. And ours was that one fire, that win-win we had, a large fire scale that allowed us to use the drone and the commissioner and seeing what its applications could do. And they're like, wow. Next came a lot of the obstacles, which involve your civil liberties and all this stuff that city councils want from you and people worried about the myth that we're spying on them. So when I came down here to Texas Robotics a couple of years ago, I met a man named Coitt Kessler from DroneSense. Not only did it live stream, they did so much more in the background. So if we had a complaint from a civilian that drones were doing something improper, that data could not be manipulated. We can play it back, show you where the drone was, where the gimbal was angled. We, therefore, put all that rumors to the bed that we are tracking our training of our pilots and the drone is constantly being monitored where it is and it's being in compliance with the state laws.

[2:43] Kevin Sofen: And I think there's a lot of people, especially here at the summit, that know the extent of drone sense, but it's interesting to hear of not just video streaming, but I think one of the challenges within robotic and drone and a lot of technology integration has been the big brother is watching, but how have you overcome the dynamic of, hey, we're actually using technology for good, we're using technology to help first responders make better decisions, and how have tools like a drone sensor or others kind of helped you navigate city council, navigate upset moms and dads, you know, how have you managed that?

[3:15] Michael Pavone: So I had actually two quick stories. One was we had an autistic child in a neighboring town who went missing, and he was drawn towards the water. That town, Everett, had hundreds of pools in the backyards of people's houses. And since it was fall, most of the pools already covered. The state police asked our drone unit from Boston Fire if we can help them to search. By using thermal cameras, we were able to quickly fly over all these pool coverings and see if there was a person underneath the cover. And we were able to locate that person. And it was able to, using drone sense, interface with multiple agencies at the same time. Another incident we kept our firefighters safe was with the whole fentanyl crisis going on here in the country. We have a lot of tents set up near headquarters and the mayor wanted us to go in those tents periodically to see if people had flammable materials inside those tents. That way they wouldn't catch on fire. By instead of sending firefighters into those tents in harm, we were able to fly the drone over with thermals, checking for hotspots inside those tents. And if we found one, we didn't notify the Boston police, and they would go ahead and remove those hazardous material.

[4:28] Kevin Sofen: And excuse some of the background noise there, if you heard it, there was an autonomous forklift just going by, that might have been a little noisy, but I think it's always inspiring to hear kind of those applications of how stories about a piece of technology being integrated to allow you to better, not only provide services, but saving someone's life in different ways. You had mentioned that first fire and kind of in that first kind of domino to fall and that first straw to break that ultimately allowed you to build out this program in it I would love to hear maybe sort of what that sort of first domino was to fall But then also kind of how did you first approach adopting integrating drones within? Boston and you know kind of what would you what would be some of the lessons learned stories you would suggest on others? Exploring trying to go down a similar path

[5:16] Michael Pavone: Yeah, it was kind of funny. It was like four o'clock in the morning I get up early and before I go to work I go to the gym and I'm en route to the city and I have the scanner on and a big large structure fire come in and brighten mess and it was a little bit of snow winds are at 30-35 miles an hour and It was a taxpayer and it went right to a five alarm fire quickly The time I got there you could not see two feet in front of you blocks away So it made it harder for the lines to be placed in their correct location and flow water on different buildings They were heavily We're in hoarder condition. So I went with the commissioners that I have a drone with me Do you want me to put it up in the air? That was the first time they actually seen it being used It was like I invented the new wheel so after that happened, he basically told my deputy we're having a meeting right away and they said what do you need and Commissioner Burke, I said I need 20 pilots. We have on staff 24-7 a dedicated drone unit in a car, and it responds out of rescue two's firehouse.

[6:21] Kevin Sofen: And that's such a great example of how drone footage, or drone up in the sky using an infrared camera to understand where the hot spots are can allow different firefighters, whether on the ground or the ladder, to be able to more effectively know where to put the wet stuff and the red stuff?

[6:39] Michael Pavone: Correct, 100%. It's amazing when you think about it, but it's just another tool in the toolbox. But when you put people in a safer position, especially when you have firefighters, they may be in a bad spot and they don't see that fire traveling through the black soot, you can alert them. Or a roof may be deteriorating quickly, getting spongy. The ice, you can see that quickly and help out as well. Especially if it's a wind-driven fire, The drones can actually give us, at 40 feet, it'll tell you exactly what the wind direction is in the miles per hour. And you can help out the IC, listen, this thing's picking up, it may hop the next street over.

[7:15] Kevin Sofen: And so there's, at the show, there's all sorts of stakeholders, .gov, .edu, .org, but I think one that's really in the background a lot of this conversation is NIST. And NIST has done some great things with different challenges, and they've got some PhD students, but they've also done a great job of creating some of these different standards and testing protocols. What is NIST to you and how has NIST kind of helped drive adoption of robotics within Boston and the greater North American first responder effort?

[7:47] Michael Pavone: NIST, I cannot say enough about it. The open lanes, one through five, not only does it test the pilot skills and depending on what mission you're flying, whether it's gonna find space or Overwatch, it also helps you pick out the right drone or vehicle for your mission or your organization's mission. And you put it to test using some of the NIST programs that Adam and the rest of the guys on the NIST program have helped develop. And it's not just drones. They actually do programs for underwater ROVs as well, like Deep Tracker and stuff like that. But it really helps the pilots hone their skills in because when you get that flight night drill, it's not like daytime. You really get focused and it helps you a lot. It's muscle memory.

[8:30] Kevin Sofen: and then kinda just expanding on that training conversation. I mean, how do you approach training and why is training not only for all, you know, the normal standard fire service operations, but how and why and what, you know, tell me more about the Boston training efforts.

[8:46] Michael Pavone: So our pilots are required every quarter to have so many hours of flying in and this is where DroneSense comes into play a lot. It helps us track each pilot training where they've maneuvered. They're not just throwing the drone up and they are sitting and hovering for 10 minutes. it actually shows me their flight path. I can go back two months, three months, it doesn't matter, and it can track it that way. When I've produced a spreadsheet for my deputies, I can show them, hey, they're doing the job, they're training, and it also does the maintenance as well, helps me out, but training is key, and you never train enough, and whether it's drones or repelling or tech rescue, it's key in training, and that's when NIST comes into play a lot too as well.

[9:25] Kevin Sofen: That's awesome. Well, it seems like many of these things, all roads lead back to Coitt Kessler, you know,

[9:29] Michael Pavone: I'm telling you, it wasn't for quite, I'm telling you, a couple of years ago, I probably still in the building phase of the drone program.

[9:35] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, I'd just be like in a ditch, cold, lonely, afraid.

[9:39] Michael Pavone: And between him, Jason Day from Austin Fire Department, they're available 24-7, they really are. And the rest of the members of the support team from DroneSense were awesome. I mean, Brendan, she was great, you know, Jeff Pritcher, all his guys are awesome, you know.

[9:53] Kevin Sofen: One thing that I think is really special about this event, and really now there's an amazing sisterhood. and brotherhood within public safety. But particularly within this robotics environment, there's something special. There's definitely a buzz of camaraderie and support and something unique. And I don't know if I can necessarily put my finger on it, but what is it about that and how it all unfolds here?

[10:17] Michael Pavone: Oh, it's definitely the brotherhood. I mean, my biggest shoulder to lean on, believe it or not, is my neighbor next door, Mike Leo in the FDNY. You wouldn't think New York and Boston, all the rivalries going on, the Red Sox and the Yankees, Even the Red Sox always had the best, you know,

[10:30] Kevin Sofen: clutch hitters. Still do, still do.

[10:32] Michael Pavone: Still do, yep. But FDNY was always there. We'd go down and visit them, and Mike Leo's team, they're, I'll call up Andrew, who's their equipment manager. Hey, have you seen this problem? Yeah, he'll tell me what's going on. And like I said, within two minutes, I'll probably get a phone call returned back.

[10:47] Kevin Sofen: Yeah. It's not like there's a competition of.

[10:49] Michael Pavone: No, it's all, hey, we want to make the whole system better for all of us. It's about public safety.

[10:54] Kevin Sofen: No, that's awesome. Well, I guess, you know, we're here in Texas. March 2023, March 2024, geez, I sometimes get my ears mixed up, you know, time flies. But what's like on your radar, what are you tracking for the rest of 2024?

[11:06] Michael Pavone: New thing starting up next week, we're meeting for a state task force for a borax unit. So we'll be having our first meeting next Tuesday. And we are looking for this new stuff beyond visual line of sight, but maybe a dock station based, you know, first responders. So.

[11:23] Kevin Sofen: And what would that, what is that?

[11:25] Michael Pavone: will be able to, so if you are located at a firehouse and you need your neighbor needs to get a drone over there as fast as possible, it will allow us to fly there through the 5G network and then we can pass the drone off to a drone unit when they come on scene. So it actually get there faster and size up the situation quicker. That's awesome. Especially if we in Boston have a lot of water around us. If we get a call for a marine unit incident, boats on fire, or whatever, we can get out there faster than the boats actually can, so.

[11:56] Kevin Sofen: I mean, it seems like that's a reoccurring theme, and what are ways that a unmanned system can get to the scene faster, save time, and ultimately reduce the risk of putting a first responder at harms?

[12:08] Michael Pavone: Yeah, especially if it gives fire alarm, that big picture, what's going on? Hey, this is the assets they're gonna need now. You're not waiting 15 minutes after a company arrives on scene. Okay, we need this asset as well. The drone's gonna paint the big picture. He's gonna tell them what they need. And not only that, for confined space interior operations, we had an incident last month when we were called to a fire and we started receiving shots. So they activated the SWAT team. Our drone unit was able to go inside, clear the building for the police, you know, and we found the perpetrator. So it worked out good that way.

[12:41] Kevin Sofen: That's awesome. And I'm kind of curious, like, do you have like sort of a Boston Fire tech roadmap or Boston Fire Robotics and effort, where do you hope to see some of the fruits of your labor in five, 10 years?

[12:55] Michael Pavone: I hope to see that we have a team of just drones, but underwater ROVs, and essentially a robotics division that can help out the HAZMAT team, Suburnian, stuff like that's where I see down the road, but mostly to get, not take over, but just be another greater asset in that toolbox.

[13:14] Kevin Sofen: That's awesome. And again, this is sort of a little bit of a wild card I'm throwing at you is somewhat of a mic drop that I've been asking everyone of. If you have a question for the audience, a statement, a quote, a challenge, or really anything that you could kinda leave us with here today.

[13:31] Michael Pavone: We can always do better. Always do better tomorrow. You think you're good, but you're not good enough.

[13:37] Kevin Sofen: I love that. I wanna run through a frickin' brick wall right now. Yeah, seriously, there's always someone out there who's trying to eat your lunch. There's someone in Kansas City who's just hungry and trying harder or someone else out there. So you gotta keep pushing.

[13:52] Michael Pavone: Yeah, technology isn't standstill, so we can't either.

[13:55] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, well said, Michael. Well, it's really been a joy listening and learning about everything you're doing with Boston FD and any way that it can help. I'm just excited to continue to spotlight this amazing work and I hope just continued success with everything you're doing.

[14:07] Michael Pavone: Thank you. Always great seeing you.

[14:09] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, you too. Thanks for tuning into this miniseries created at the Texas Robotics Summit hosted by Granite Defense. Make sure to put this amazing event on your calendar for 2025. For this podcast episode, what'd you like? What'd you think? Drop us a comment on social media and let us know your favorite quote. Thanks for all that you do and have a great day ahead.