Episode 207: Above & Beyond: The Use of Robots in Current & Future FDNY Operations with Michael Leo & Fred Carlson

Episode notes

How does the New York City Fire Department (FDNY) use drones?

Hello Smart Firefighting Community!

Welcome to another episode of covering real world innovations via interviews with fire service and technology industry experts that empower YOU to develop your very own Smart Firefighting strategy!

Welcome to this 20-episode Texas Robotics Summit Mini Series! This 4 day event (March 4-7, 2024) was hosted at the Reveille Peak Ranch and by our friends at Granite Defense , and showcased the use of robotics (air/water/ground) in public safety via keynote presentations, training scenario stations, roundtable conversations, and more.

In this episode:

FDNY's innovative use of drones for water rescues

Overcoming NYC's unique challenges with robotics

Embracing future tech for better firefighting tactics

Learn from New York City Fire Department's Captain Michael Leo and Lieutenant Fred Carlson .

Our guests discuss using drones and robots in their operations at FDNY. They explain how drones are used for shark patrol and water rescues, as well as the challenges faced by FDNY in providing life-saving services in a densely populated city like New York.

They also highlight the various robots FDNY uses, such as ground robots and sonar-equipped boats, and the value they bring to firefighting and public safety. We end by talking about future technology adoption and the importance of collaboration between companies and FDNY.

So click play now to find out what they have to share! And stay tuned for the next Mini Series episode!

Head to www.smartfirefighting.com to discover how SFF accelerates innovation for emergency responders, to find out when our next event is, or review our curated resources!

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Chapters

1. 0:00 Kevin's intro: the Texas Robotics Summit mini-series
2. 0:45 Captain Michael Leo and Lieutenant Fred Carlson of FDNY join
3. 0:59 Why FDNY came to the summit
4. 1:31 Rescue tube drops and shark patrol at the Rockaways
5. 2:27 What happens when they spot a shark
6. 3:18 One robotics and drone unit for all of New York City
7. 4:15 What makes New York unique: airspace and vertical buildings
8. 7:33 Ground robots and how FDNY uses them
9. 9:31 EMILY and sonar for water recovery
10. 10:12 Robots are there to leverage data
11. 13:08 Where FDNY tech is headed in one to five years
12. 15:00 What TAK is and why it matters
13. 17:46 Advice for startups and companies that want to work with FDNY
14. 22:32 What keeps them up at night and what excites them
15. 26:23 Parting thoughts: training never lets you down
16. 28:49 Closing

Questions answered in this episode

Why is FDNY dropping rescue tubes from drones?

Michael Leo says they run shark patrols at the Rockaways, watching for sharks and swimmers in distress. If a drone with a rescue tube already attached spots a swimmer in trouble, they can drop the device immediately so the person has a flotation aid until rescuers arrive, instead of having to deploy and hook up a drone after the fact.

Hear it at 1:40

What makes New York City's airspace so challenging for drone operations?

Fred Carlson says the airspace is incredibly complicated, with Class B airspace from LaGuardia, JFK, and Newark overlapping the city, plus several heliports along the Hudson and East Rivers, seaplanes in Jamaica Bay, and helicopters coming in. It took a long road of getting buy-in from federal and local agencies to let them fly.

Hear it at 4:38

How does FDNY use ground robots?

Michael Leo says they operate two Boston Dynamics Spot robots, mainly for hazmat applications, though they have also used them in collapse situations. The robots can serve as communications nodes to create mesh networks and penetrate buildings. They also use them for STEM education and opened a robotics club at FDNY High School.

Hear it at 8:00

What is the FDNY robotics unit's response protocol?

Fred Carlson says the unit operates with an officer, a pilot, a visual observer, and a data specialist. They respond on second alarms and greater, large brush fires, high angle rescue, and confined space calls, and can self-assign if they hear something they can help with. They average about a thousand call-outs per year.

Hear it at 3:42

How did drones help at a junkyard fire in Staten Island?

Fred Carlson says crews had been fighting the fire for a while with little progress. The drone's thermal imaging revealed that the seat of the fire was actually in a different row than where smoke was visible. After redirecting streams to the hotter area, the smoke color and intensity improved almost immediately and resources got back into service quicker.

Hear it at 10:32

Transcript

Machine transcript of the published audio. Names may be misspelled and some sections are missing.

Ep 207 transcript

Above & Beyond: The Use of Robots in Current & Future FDNY Operations with Michael Leo & Fred Carlson

Speakers: Kevin Sofen, Fred Carlson, Michael Leo

Source: Whisper medium.en machine transcription of the published Podbean audio (no original transcript found in Drive), lightly cleaned. Speakers were separated by voice clustering and then checked and assigned by hand at every speaker change. Gaps where the model returned no usable text are marked [inaudible m:ss].

[0:00] Kevin Sofen: Welcome to a 20-episode mini-series at the Texas Robotics Summit, hosted by our friends at Granite Defense. We dive into the evolving world of drones and robotics in public safety aviation. Through 20 fantastic conversations with leaders across public safety, from the fire service, law enforcement, EMS operations, wildlife management, and more, we explore the challenges, and the critical role of technology in enhancing emergency services operations. A special thanks to the sponsor of the Smart Firefighting Podcast, W.S. Darley & Company, for making this podcast possible. Enjoy the show. We are here live at the ranch alongside Captain Michael Leo and Lieutenant Fred Carlson from FDNY. How you guys doing?

[0:53] Fred Carlson: Doing well, keeping busy. A lot to see, a lot of people to catch up with, and a lot of industry to talk about.

[0:59] Kevin Sofen: So what brings you guys to the middle of nowhere, Texas, to hang out and talk about robots?

[1:06] Michael Leo: Yeah, so this is a great opportunity for us to come out and kind of see what everyone's doing in the industry, any new trends, and also gives us the ability to test our own capabilities out. We have some time here where we're actually running a station, where we're doing breast tube drops and payload deliveries, as well as messenger line capabilities. So this is a great opportunity to do this outside of New York City, where we really can.

[1:31] Kevin Sofen: You said the words payload drop and rescue tube droppable. In layman's terms, what is that? Why is FDNY dropping a rescue tube from a drone?

[1:40] Michael Leo: So we've been working at the beach. Mayor Adams from New York City basically asked us if we could do shark patrol. And, you know, after doing a risk assessment at the Rockaways last year, We looked at what we really needed to do. So although we are looking for sharks that have come close to people, we're also looking for swimmers in distress. We're looking at the rip currents that we can easily identify from the air. And it's been working out really well. So one of the things we saw at the end of the season is if we can do our patrols with these rescue tubes attached, which we were doing at the end of the year, and we see a swimmer in distress, we don't have to deploy a drone and hook it up. It's already hooked up. We're already in the air. We swoop down, drop the device, and then that person has some type of life-saving device to keep them afloat until we have the rest of the rescuers go get them.

[2:27] Kevin Sofen: So then what happens when you spot a shark? Do you airlift right in there, any bear rustles them or what?

[2:33] Michael Leo: Absolutely. We follow actually, we've been working all off season for a notification system through the New York City parks and the mayor's office and so we have this whole protocol that we follow once we see a shark. That's close to swimmers. I mean, we've seen, what do we see this year?

[2:48] Fred Carlson: I've lost track, it wasn't just sharks. We had a lot of smaller fish. We had some whales, a lot of wildlife, turtles, yeah, dolphins, you name it. There's a lot of stuff in the water out there and it's not like they live there or anything, but it's good to have that awareness. And we are looking at other options of shark deterrent equipment. They have electrified lines that you can drop in that'll deter the sharks. So we're just trying to see what else is out there in the industry that we can leverage into public safety to make the water safer for the citizens of New York.

[3:18] Kevin Sofen: So I think when people hear FDNY, they think of just a pretty large fire scale operation. And there's not only the scope of firefighters, but also just the density and the population of the city. I'd love to hear some context. What are some of the operational challenges that FDNY faces when trying to provide life-saving and just kind of general day-to-day fire service operations for the city of New York?

[3:42] Fred Carlson: New York City Fire Department is tremendous. And it's a daunting scope for what we do. the fact that we're one robotic and drone unit for the whole city. We operate with an officer, a pilot, a visual observer and a data specialist, a couple hundred miles of shoreline, a couple hundred square miles of land to cover and thousands of runs every day. We average about a thousand call outs a year with our unit and when we're not flying at incidents, we're training. So it's something that we as a group are staying on top of, but for what the FDNY as a whole tackles day in and day out is really insurmountable.

[4:15] Kevin Sofen: I'd love to kind of expand on that a little bit. What makes New York unique in terms of some of the challenges? I mean, when thinking about, Corinna, I hate thinking about how each fire department's a little different, because there are so many commonalities, but what are some of the unique New York challenges and unique kind of dynamics to New York that maybe people aren't aware of?

[4:34] Fred Carlson: From a drone standpoint or from a fire department standpoint?

[4:37] Kevin Sofen: I think both.

[4:38] Fred Carlson: Well, as far as a drone standpoint, our airspace is incredibly complicated. We have LaGuardia, JFK, and Newark with all Class B airspace that overlap the city. Several heliports up and down the Hudson River and the East River. We have seaplanes taken off out of the East River out in Jamaica Bay. Heli flights coming in, it's really some congested airspace. And it was a long road of getting buy-in from federal partners and local city agencies and everybody to be on board to let us be able to fly and be able to provide the situational awareness that our members need while operating at large scale events. So as a drone unit, we do respond on second alarms greater, large brush fires, any kind of high angle rescue, confined space, and we can self-assign. If we hear something coming in that we feel like we can help, we have the ability to call the dispatcher and respond as a unit to go assist. We've also been asked to help with other city agencies that don't have drone programs. So that's how this whole life safety mission began down in the Rockaway Peninsula is the Parks Department was given drones by the governor and said, hey, we don't know what to do with this. We don't know how to train. We don't have a program. We don't have administration that can handle this concept. So it's become a bit of a task for us to develop ways to help other city agencies get into the drone space, which has been really a lot of fun and interesting because it's nice to get fresh eyes. People that never thought they'd be using drones, to get it in their hands and to have them come to the realization of how they can leverage the technology has been really beneficial.

[6:03] Kevin Sofen: Michael, how else would you add to that from a drone perspective or kind of the uniqueness of New York's fire service operations?

[6:10] Michael Leo: Well we're very unique in that we're very vertical right so and that also presents some issues you know such as the urban canopy where we have lots of RF issues, lots of GPS issues, the winds that go through these buildings you know like it's a huge grid and every time the wind shifts just like half a degree it's a whole new wind pattern and then the venturi effects of the wind whipping through the buildings so the drone pilots really have to be on their toes and the same goes through with firefighting. I mean, working in such a vertical area, I mean, it's like, you know, the firefighters every day, you know, they're going up a couple of floors, at least every, you know, most of the days we have fires. And it's just, that's taxing, you know, the verticalness of it. And there's not many cities that are, you know, like Chicago is a good example of someone who's close to what we have. It's just, it's just a massive amount of old, dense buildings that create a whole bunch of different problems. And magnetic interference is another huge problem that we encounter every day with the drones so we're progressing at a great rate where we can be of great service to the incident commander making moves validating their moves after they make them and things are going really well and we're looking to the future to the things that we're gonna do as far as integrating new systems and connecting with you know more smart firefighting

[7:28] Kevin Sofen: well said I didn't even ask for that plug there you go served it up So, I mean, really thank you for all that information and context about New York. And both of you have said the word drones in different ways, but I think also the summit is called the Texas Robotics Summit. I mean, I know New York is not just using aerial drones, but some aspects of land drones, water drones, and different ways or robots. Tell me more about some of the kind of like the suite of robots that FDNY is using within the robotics scene.

[8:00] Michael Leo: So we've been using unmanned ground systems for a long time. So what happened was they got embedded into other units who really didn't know how to use the technology. And so of course they were turning these devices on without putting the antennas on, frying the radio boards, all the rookie mistakes that you'd make if you didn't really know a lot about robotics. So that kind of helped create our program where we said we were going to take a bunch of people who are tech savvy and knew what they were doing and make it a dedicated unit which really is what we needed. So a lot of those old robots we ended up getting rid of and right now we operate with two Boston Dynamic Spot robots and they've been very good and useful for what we do. They represent more of a hazmat application but already we've shown that we've used them in a collapse situation so we're looking for different ways we use them. We also use them a lot in STEM education where we look at the worth of what we're doing and how we're spending taxpayer dollars to do all this stuff. So how can we use these things all the time? the time using them and creating worth in the program. So we do a lot of STEM education. We actually opened up our own robotics club inside of a high school in New York City, the FDNY High School, and that's been a great endeavor as well. So those two robots basically work together at events. You know, we use the one maybe to use as a communications, you know, node hopping and creating the mesh that we need to penetrate inside of a building. And then we have other robots and I'll let Fred talk about, you know, we have a couple of ROVs, all surface, but I'll let Fred take that.

[9:31] Fred Carlson: Sure. So we also have an EMILY, which is side scanning sonar that's remotely operated for finding things in the water. So if you have recovery effort that might be too rough of a current that you don't want to get our divers into, or if it's against the rocks, I'd rather risk the use of an ROV boat with side scanning sonar than putting somebody's life into a bad situation. And we're also looking at using the dolphin propelled life rests that go out and you can use them to... at people that are stuck in rip currents as well. So, we're always looking for new ways to leverage technology into what we do, because there's so much out there that can be brought into the public safety wheelhouse that it's just another tool in the sheath.

[10:12] Kevin Sofen: I mean, I've heard you both say in different ways of how you can use a robot to prevent putting a first responder's life at risk, which seems to be a kind of a no-brainer application of why drones make sense. What are some other examples of why, how robots provide value to the fire department, or force multiply or save time and money in different ways?

[10:32] Fred Carlson: So the robots are there to leverage data, right? I mean, that's really when it comes down to it, that's what we're doing. We're correlating data, whether it be photogrammetry or infrared imagery or just regular optical images, and we're getting that to the people that are making the decisions. One of my favorite events that we had, we had a junkyard fire and we got the drone up. They had been there. It was out in Staten Island. We respond out of Roosevelt Island for anybody that doesn't know New York City. On a Friday afternoon, that's about a two-hour car ride. but we got there in relatively good time, but they were having a really hard time with this fire. It was burning for quite a while. And we got the drone up and we were able to see that the seat of the fire was actually the row behind the cars that had the smoke coming out of it and about three cars down. So we redirected, well, we spoke to the chief and said, hey, you might wanna redirect some of these streams over to this area, it seems to be hotter. And started improving quickly. And for those that don't understand New York City Fire Department, when a call comes in, the three fire houses that are closest to that incident get assigned to it. So we don't have anybody else coming to help us. We backfill our own companies. So the more resources that are at an event, there's more resources that aren't available for other neighborhoods. So to get those resources back into service and back to covering their areas better for the citizens of the city. So the fact that we could get there and say, hey, this might get better if you move the streams over here and it was almost a night and day difference. The color of the smoke started changing, the intensity and the veracity of which it was coming out of these piled up cars was improving and we got resources back into service quicker So that type of an event was something that really got a lot of buy-in early on in our expeditions of going out to help. So it's been little victories like that have gotten more buy-in. So using the robotic dog at the collapse in Manhattan, we were still searching for somebody that was in the building and we were able to locate that without having to put somebody in harm's way. And that's the type of the win that we're looking for. We're gonna leverage that equipment where we don't wanna risk somebody getting hurt. I don't wanna have to buy another t-shirt for somebody that dies line of duty. If I had to buy another robot dog, I'll buy another robot dog. It's a much better investment.

[12:29] Kevin Sofen: Anything you wanna add on that, Michael?

[12:31] Michael Leo: Yeah, I mean, I think what, you know, Fred was starting to dive into was the safety aspect of things as well. You know, when we're operating in these buildings and if we were able to put the water on target faster, it definitely gets us out of there faster. It's less water in the building, less of a collapse potential. And certainly there's a huge safety end of all this where we can see firefighters on a roof. We've watched firefighters bail off of the roof and we're able to tell the chief that they're actually safe and then they don't have to go through a whole May Day protocol, start putting other resources at that May Day. And so that's another end of drones that is really big.

[13:08] Kevin Sofen: So we're here and you just gave some great context about drones and robots within the context of FDNY. Maybe not just a robotics standpoint, you mentioned earlier leveraging technology to help FDNY be more effective, do their job more safely and efficiently. What else is FDNY thinking about or tracking in regards to some technology adoption or some change management within the next, you know, six months to six years?

[13:32] Michael Leo: Well, we move at the pace at which all big government moves, so fast, really fast. So six months, I don't know about, I don't know if I get to give you anything on six months. One to five years. So we're such a big entity. I'll be honest with you know, we basically are program administrators for the robotics program. And there's a lot that the FDNY does that we might not even be privy to on some of the technologies that come up. So, I mean, there's things that we're working on and we constantly like RF technologies with communications. We're constantly in touch with them and they're constantly changing our communication systems and making it better, making fail-safe systems, backing it up. But as far as new technologies, I don't see anything really on the forefront that's-

[14:16] Fred Carlson: There are things that I would like to see brought into that I see federal partners use, such as like ATAK, just better equipment tracking and having that bigger situational awareness picture of who's where and doing what. But that's way above me. I mean, we have a research and development department that this is all they do. And every once in a while, our lives cross paths and we get to discuss things and how to integrate it. So I know even our spiro safety is always looking to find ways to leverage that technology. And we're almost like a testing bed for them. If they see something that they want to try, they'll call us and we'll bounce off of each other with a soundboard. I mean, with 11,000 people in our department, it's very hard to say where that department's going. That's way above us, but anything we can do to help make decisions along the way is what we're here for.

[15:00] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, and I would be remiss not to ask it as you just brought it up, but the word ATAK. I've heard the word TAK being used more and more within the realm of public safety. In your words, and both Mike and Fred, what is TAK and how is it something that could help different small, medium, large departments better take their drone data and use it for good.

[15:21] Fred Carlson: So that's part of the reason that I personally wanted to come down to this event is the state of Texas and the state of Colorado have stood up servers. So TAK stands for Technical Awareness Kit, which is basically a computer program that can accept data from smart devices, cell phones, iPads, ADS-B, so broadcasting technology out of planes, helicopters, and it brings all of it into an interface that you can share. So it's basically like an operational standpoint that you can sit back and look at what's going on. So we currently leverage DroneSense for our flight data so that we can see our other pilots while we're flying and our video links are all streamed online to, we call it the IC app, the Incident Command app. So the FDNY technology department built its own in-house application that every chief, every fire apparatus all has access to this massive amount of data that's into this application, whether it's Esri layers for where subway stations are or Con Ed stations for power or water mains, How big is that fire hydrant for the super pumper? Like all that data is correlated into this app and through DroneSense and an API, we're able to push our data into that. So the chiefs that are responding from far away, if we're there first, can click on a link and they'll be able to see what our drones are providing at that incident. So to leverage TAK is something that we would need from higher up on the food chain. The FDNY to stand up its own server might be a little bit of a heavy lift, but it's something that if we can prove the worth of it from states like Texas and Colorado, the FBI, There are several other larger federal government agencies that use it and the DOD that it's shareable data. It's using those backend API switches to pull information and be able to see who's where. So, you know, if the NYPD is flying a helicopter over our incident, I'll be able to see it, you know, in real time as it's happening. So it's just that shareable tangible data that can help make decisions better and quicker and more efficient is what I'm really looking forward to.

[17:07] Kevin Sofen: Any hot take on TAK, Michael?

[17:10] Michael Leo: Yeah, I mean, I could see how TAK would really, the problem with us is like TAK would work out really well for us as in robotics. As a full for the New York City Fire Department and all department resources, there's some trouble with it in that we're a very vertical city. So, you know, I see a lot of the advantages that it would bring us, but I also see some, you know, some of the things that is gonna hinder it. I mean, if we have 400 personnel on one scene at a, you know, we don't need the blue force tracking. We know where they are. It's the Z axis that we need. And I know a lot of people are working on it, so it's something that I think will come in the future. But, and when it does, it's gonna become very valuable.

[17:46] Kevin Sofen: Within the context of FDNY, we talked about robots, we've talked about, you just mentioned tracking, different aspects of common operating picture. What would be your message to some of the kind of early stage startup companies as well as established companies when they're thinking about, hey, like I wanna try and work with FDNY. I would love the opportunity to try and collaborate with FDNY in some context, and of course, FDNY has evolving challenges like everyone. What would you say to problem solvers out there and companies and entrepreneurs that are interested in trying to collaborate with FDNY?

[18:21] Michael Leo: Well, I mean, we're certainly open to it. We've done a lot of it over the years. We also do a lot of it through other agencies like drone responders, where we're able to help on a broader scale, and it's tough. Sometimes we get a lot of requests, like a lot to do certain things, And we try to meet them all, but we can't always. And then, you know, people have to remember, we're an anomaly where our city is just so big and different from a lot of other places, but there's a lot of lessons that we've done over the, and, you know, our lessons, you know, come from failure and they come from success. So, and we openly share all that. And I think that's important because, you know, it's been a long road. I mean, this 2024 is actually 10 full years now that we have started research and development to, you know, where we are now. 2017 being the first time we actually flew a drone at a incident. You know, we've had a lot of, and it's big city stuff, so, you know, we have a lot of political things and then, you know, money, it's on everybody's mind and, you know, you have to have leadership that supports you which I have to say, you know, our leadership is outstanding from, you know, all the way up and they really got behind us and it enabled us to start a very successful program that's 365, 24-7 and dedicated to just doing this.

[19:36] Kevin Sofen: That's awesome. And I mean, Fred, if you want to add on to that, I mean, even the, what would be your message to companies that are, you know, even in other industries that are maybe thinking about trying to bring your technology into public safety, maybe at whole, or obviously with an FDY context?

[19:53] Fred Carlson: It's definitely a difficult task for the fact that, you know, Mike preaches it all the time, organizational structure. It's not something that we're just going to take a piece of equipment. and just do it on our own. It needs approval from our chiefs and research and development. So for us, it's not a small undertaking to just say, hey, you made a new drone, we'll try it out. That's really not how we operate. I mean, I don't want it to end badly for anybody. So until it's something that we can really truly trust, it's, you know, we're flying over 8 million people. I mean, not literally flying over the people. Mike O'Shea would get very mad at me for saying that, but with the dense population in our operations, it's not something that we're gonna take somebody's, you know, equipment off the shelf and just try it. And it'll start, it's definitely a crawl, walk, run, right? So if we're gonna get a piece of equipment that we're gonna try out, we're gonna try it on our proving grounds out in Queens on an open field and see how it handles. And then as it gets, our members get more proficient, comfortable with it, we'll progress to more difficult environments, then it's not something that we're just gonna throw into effect right away. So it takes some time for us. And that's another problem for a lot of these companies is what we do is going to take time. We'll try your equipment, but we're gonna try your equipment. we're gonna have it's gonna go through its paces. It might break, it might come back in multiple pieces. I don't know, but nobody wants to see somebody get hurt or something break and something get damaged. So it's definitely a risk versus reward thing for us to be able to adopt early technology.

[21:12] Michael Leo: Yeah, I always say too, like there's some companies that come up with some outstanding tech and unbelievable devices, and it could be the best device you've ever made and it could save people 100% of time and be very reliable if it doesn't fit into our operations. And that's a whole nother component of how we research and develop what we're using is it's gotta fit in our operations. I mean, if it doesn't, it's never gonna work. In other words, if we have to go back and get something, if it's too large to operate, too large to get on the scene, we're actually, I always say we have to be very fast and mobile and agile, and that's what gets us to the scenes quicker. And with the drone industry, we have to constantly look ahead of where we're gonna be, and that takes help from academia, It takes help from all government, all other government entities that help us. And so we're looking to the future where now we may not have to drive there anymore. Now we can fly there. And obviously everyone's looking towards that. It's very difficult in New York City because, you know, until we have some type of sense and avoid technology that's, you know, credible and reliable, you know, we're kind of just watching the technology right now. But sooner or later, that's what's going to happen. And it's going to make – it's just going to change everything we do in our whole operation. So those are just some points that, you know, when it comes to working with other people, sometimes they have a great product, but it just doesn't fit into our operation.

[22:32] Kevin Sofen: Yeah. So Brandon, we could, this podcast could go on for hours and I realized there was some stuff going on and demos when they get to, but kind of two final questions I want to get to for both of you. And this, the first one is kind of actually two parts, I guess, three questions. Within the context of your role of FDNY and frankly, you just fire service at large, you know, what's something that it's kind of twofold. What's something that keeps you up at night, and what's also something that you're really excited about and you see there being real potential about, man, this is something that really could be a game changer within what you're doing within the public safety sector.

[23:03] Michael Leo: So everything keeps me up at night, to be honest with you. So just a little family dynamic. My wife is a physician and she's on call a lot. So my phone goes off, her phone goes off, I have to go, I go in on fourth alarms to kind of de-conflict airspace and then she's getting up. So we don't get a lot of sleep. However, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of responsibility in running a problem and being the person that, you know, if something goes wrong, like I'm getting that phone call and, you know, anybody else who's in that position kind of understands that, but I will say that, the team is, and has been unbelievable. And I always say like, a lot of people ask me, what's that aha moment in your, and I always say the same thing. Well, my aha moment is every time my pilot decides not to fly because they're making good aeronautical decisions. And to me, I champion that's something that, okay, you made a good decision. You didn't try to push it and you know, the fire departments are fire departments been around since 1865 I think that they'll they'll manage without a drone for another day if that's the case if we can't fly Certainly the drones make everything better. It's a great tool But those are you know, those are some of the things that I think about, you know consistently I'll agree with that

[24:15] Fred Carlson: Yeah, I have to agree with Mike and whatever he's out of town I'm next up on deck for going in on fourth alarms and that is something that it's very different Between somebody like the wildfire community where they have an ATAK and an air boss and they're running that whole Integration between manned aviation and everything else for us in an urban environment. There's really no official title for it We didn't want to steal a nomenclature that's already in use. So we don't call ourselves an air boss. That's not our job So we go in as airspace coordinators because we're gonna be in touch with the local press helicopters and talk to the NYPD helicopter air base and we're gonna de-conflict that way through other means. But what was the second part of the question, about technology that's upcoming? What am I excited about? I'm really amazed at the amount of the electrical vehicle for the robots, the ground robots. There's a lot of track bots and things that can move cars and with the influx of EV fires that we've been seeing with lithium ion batteries, just equipment that can handle those nasty, dark underground fires without anybody losing their lives would be a big win for me. So there's a lot of equipment here that we're looking at, a lot of stuff from the DOD industry that is making its way into public safety. And that's a lot of the stuff that I've been personally trying to keep my eyes on because it is becoming an issue within the city, the amount of fatalities we've had from lithium-ion fires.

[25:32] Kevin Sofen: Mike, what about you and the excitement part?

[25:35] Michael Leo: Well, there's things that I'm looking forward to that I know will probably happen over time. One of the things that just has to do with pure firefighting is, so like we have smoke detectors in the hallways in these high rise buildings, this is where more of the smart thing comes in, right? So wouldn't it be great if they can make these detectors like, you know, multi-detectors where now we might have thermal, we might have LIDAR, we might have temperature sensors, and then we could see what's going on in that floor. So now we pull up and we know that, you know, there's more smoke on the 67th floor. We need to send – that's where we got to send units. And sometimes, you know, strange things happen with the people opening doors when they shouldn't be. So there's sometimes we have a couple of floors that are far away from each other that are filled with smoke and we need to get resources there as quick as possible. So I look forward to things like that. You know, the technology that's going to get to the firefighters very quickly. And when they pull up, they kind of know exactly where to go to and target where they need to be.

[26:23] Kevin Sofen: And now, final questions for both of you. It could also be a statement, but any sort of, call the mic drop, but a question, a comment, a quote, or a challenge that you live by or something that you could leave us with here today.

[26:36] Michael Leo: Yeah, that's a tough one.

[26:39] Kevin Sofen: It also doesn't need to be fire service, really. It could be about New York sports, you know, Yankees Mets, Giants Jets.

[26:45] Michael Leo: I'm not a big quote, he's a big quote guy, he's a big quote guy, he should have something. So we send out this newsletter every, it was every week, now we do it monthly, it was just getting to be a lot. And this is a great point for anybody starting a program or has a program. So this newsletter that Fred puts out, he puts a quote in it every week, that's why this came up on this question. And so I figured he'd have something to say. But this newsletter he puts out is unbelievable because it says everything that we've done in the last month, what we're doing, where we're going, how we're doing it's a way that we as the program administrators can talk to the unit that's the operational unit so they understand so it goes down the chain then it goes up the chain and now all of our bosses went all the way up know what we're doing what we've done they can see the worth of the unit and it's an outstanding tool.

[27:28] Kevin Sofen: Is it a public newsletter?

[27:30] Michael Leo: It's not public you know we just put it out internally but I mean if somebody wanted to look at it we have plenty to share and we certainly give that out.

[27:39] Fred Carlson: Well I did so part of why we're here right and this is a big part of this and it's something that we bring into our training and it's let no man's ghost return to say my training let me down and training is steadfast that is what the fire service is you want your you want your operations to be second nature you don't want to have to think about what you're doing and that's the beauty of our program is that our pilots are dedicated to just this when something goes wrong they're not thinking about how do I take care of this they're thinking about what can I do to make it better and that all just falls back on training and the willingness from our chiefs to let us be what we are and that's just something that our program really strives for is to be trained up and efficient and available and to be able to get the job done.

[28:17] Kevin Sofen: Man, if that's not a mic drop, I don't know what is. And I guess like you said earlier, you're either flying and you're out there or you're training. So I appreciate your no days off mentality to continue to become the best versions of yourself to provide the best possible service to the citizens of New York. Any final thoughts?

[28:34] Fred Carlson: Thanks for having us. Yeah.

[28:36] Michael Leo: Yeah, thank you.

[28:37] Kevin Sofen: We really appreciate it. I appreciate you guys. You're doing some really good stuff. the work that you're doing and I look forward to staying in touch and collaborating in the future. Thank you. Thank you. Until next time. Thanks for tuning into this mini series created at the Texas Robotics Summit hosted by Granite Defense. Make sure to put this amazing event on your calendar for 2025. For this podcast episode, what do you like? What do you think? Drop us a comment on social media and let us know your favorite quote. Thanks for all that you do and have a great day ahead.