Episode 196: Behind the Fire Line: First Responder Perspectives on Old & New Technology Value with Chris Moon & Seth Burton

Published 2024-01-25

Episode notes

Two firefighters' two cents:

Hello Smart Firefighting Community!

Welcome to another episode of covering real world innovations via interviews with fire service and technology industry experts that empower YOU to develop your very own Smart Firefighting strategy!

Thanks for joining our 16 part FRST Challenge Mini Series recorded at the competition! Tracking and situational awareness has long been a problem for first responders. That's why the FRST Challenge competition is designed to pinpoint 3D tracking technologies that provide one-meter accuracy for first responders in indoor environments, crucial for enhancing their safety during rescue operations.

The 6 finalist teams competed in localization and ruggedization tests at Muscatatuck Urban Training Center from October 23-27, 2023. Winning teams gain access to funding, business support, and live field testing opportunities to evolve their solutions for real-world application.

In this episode:

Examine the real-world applications and value of emerging technologies as seen through the experiences of two firefighters

Understand the strategies for engaging with the public safety sector

Gain insights into the unique culture of first responders and the messages that resonate most when introducing new technology

So click play now to get the inside scoop from Chris Moon and Seth Burton - firefighters for the Columbus Fire Department in Indiana - and stay tuned for the rest of our mini series!

Head to www.smartfirefighting.com to discover how SFF accelerates innovation for emergency responders, to find out when our next event is, or review our curated resources!

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Chapters

0:00 Intro
1:14 Meet Chris Moon and Seth Burton of the Columbus Fire Department
1:28 A firefighter's view of the technology
2:22 Why indoor location matters to command
3:14 Racing the clock on air
4:08 Advice for companies bringing tech to the fire service
5:20 Technology is the future
5:54 Trends that catch their eye
7:28 Why field testing matters
9:25 Show me, don't tell me
10:13 Final thoughts
10:54 Brian's advice to rookies
12:18 Wrap up
12:34 Outro

Questions answered in this episode

Why is indoor localization technology important for firefighters?

Chris Moon says anytime you can eliminate half the building right off the bat, that's going to get you there twice the time most likely. Seth Burton adds that when you're inside on a working incident, you're limited on time and racing the clock based on how much air they have left and how much air you have, so reducing search time is critical.

Hear it at 2:40

What is the biggest challenge for new technology on the fireground?

Seth Burton says it's chaotic for the first 15 to 20 minutes of an incident. Any new product has to be deployable within minutes with no time for something to load or boot up, and you won't have time to set markers out somewhere. It has to work right off the bat.

Hear it at 4:33

What technology trends are catching on in the fire service right now?

Seth Burton says drones are coming in pretty big right now. Columbus Fire is currently using drones with thermal imaging for search and rescue, and their battalion truck and deputy chief have drones they can launch on a scene. He sees drones eventually becoming integrated into most fire scenes.

Hear it at 6:36

Why is third-party testing important for fire service technology?

Chris Moon says things that may work in a laboratory may not work in the real world. The testing process is where two worlds combine, engineers and first responders, to figure out what could work in a real scenario and what couldn't.

Hear it at 7:55

Transcript

Machine transcript of the published audio. Names may be misspelled and some sections are missing.

Ep 196 transcript

Behind the Fire Line: First Responder Perspectives on Old & New Technology Value with Chris Moon & Seth Burton

Speakers: Kevin Sofen, Brian (audience member), Chris Moon, Seth Burton

Source: Whisper medium.en machine transcription of the published Podbean audio (no original transcript found in Drive), lightly cleaned. Speakers were separated by voice clustering and then checked and assigned by hand at every speaker change. Gaps where the model returned no usable text are marked [inaudible m:ss].

[0:00] Kevin Sofen: Hello, everyone, and welcome to a new Smart Firefighting mini-series created during the phase five of the FRST Challenge, hosted at the Muscatatuck Urban Training Center. The FRST Challenge focus is to produce marketable prototypes that demonstrate indoor localization tracking of first responders within one meter accuracy without any pre-deployed infrastructure. Many of you heard stories from phase four, and here in phase five, the challenges were increased by including multiple responders, longer durations, and longer distances. In these conversations, you will hear from many of the entrepreneurs, first responders, and team members involved that address these challenges and opportunities of X, Y, and Z axis tracking from multiple perspectives around scalability, usability, affordability, and more. This challenge is administered by the Indiana University Crisis Technologies Innovation Lab and funded by the NIST Public Safety Communication Research PSCR Division. Also, consider putting the NIST 5x5 Conference on your calendar, located in Chicago, June 25th to 27th, 2024. Enjoy this deep dive into first responder tracking technology, and please reach out with your thoughts. We were just kind of hanging on the stoop in front of the prison in Muscatatuck alongside Chris Moon and Seth Burton from Columbus Fire Department. How you guys doing today?

[1:21] Chris Moon: Good. Doing well.

[1:22] Kevin Sofen: So we have an audience here, some of their friends from the Columbus Fire Department. So you guys are active first responders. You guys have been hanging out here, trying and deploying and testing all the technology. What has been your perspective from a first responder in terms of like, what is this technology? Why is it important? And ultimately what's been your thoughts on it?

[1:44] Chris Moon: I think it's a good thing overall. What do you think, Seth?

[1:48] Seth Burton: It's good. We don't have anything of the sort right now know where anyone's at really inside of a structure on a on a scene especially we get into some sort of industrial situation where you have hundreds of thousands of square feet I mean there's there's incidents out there the Charleston 9 where they got lost in the sofa factory or sofa store the they just didn't know where anyone was located so they couldn't really do an effective rescue.

[2:22] Kevin Sofen: It's maybe still a bit early in a sense but I am convinced and I do have maybe comfort and confidence that this type of tech could be brought to the market. In your guys perspective, why is indoor localization something that is valuable from an incident command perspective for fire, law, and EMS situations?

[2:40] Chris Moon: I think anytime you have a little bit of an advantage going into a situation, you need all the help you can get. Sometimes if maybe visibility is low or if Buildings have changed the layouts and stuff like that anytime you can have an idea what corner someone's in Maybe you don't need to know where they're at within a foot But if you can if you can know how you can eliminate half the building right off the bat That's going to get you there twice the time most likely so I think that obviously the closer you can get the better But anytime you can go in with it within an upper hand. It's definitely gonna help you out in the long run

[3:14] Kevin Sofen: Any other thoughts in terms of like the value of this type of tech for first responders and why it's important?

[3:20] Seth Burton: I mean, just when you're inside on a working incident, you're limited on time. You're racing the clock the whole time from just how much air they have left and how much air you have. I mean, if you're wasting half your bottle just looking for somebody, you got to remember you got to have that same amount of air, if not more, if you're bringing somebody out with you or if you don't find them you still need to have burden because I mean if you go down looking for somebody that it's just gonna increase the amount of people going in.

[3:50] Chris Moon: Also they say it takes three firefighters to go and find to go and get one that's down if you can a lot of that's air consumption and so if you can eliminate the time it takes to get there departments that are manpower limited you might have another upper hand there.

[4:06] Kevin Sofen: That's a good point and in and kind of from both your, all your perspectives, what would you say to other aspiring entrepreneurs and companies that want to try and bring technology into the public safety space? I mean, this is not even just with indoor localization, but whether it's with drones or virtual reality or some type of new incident commands offer, whatever it may be, what are some tips, tricks, suggestions that you would share with people about bringing new tech to the fire service?

[4:33] Seth Burton: The big thing would just be get familiar with what is actually going on inside of a, either if it's a battalions truck or command center, you got to go and see what they're actually dealing with. You got to know if you got to do 20 steps before you can even start using the product, it's probably not going to work. It's chaotic for the first 15 to 20 minutes. So if it's some new product that you're going to be trying to use, it's going to have to be deployable within minutes and you're not gonna have time for something to load, boot up, you're not gonna have time to go set markers out somewhere. It's gonna have to be, it's just gonna have to work right off the bat which is gonna be probably the biggest challenge with any of it.

[5:20] Chris Moon: The world's constantly evolving. Firefighting is constantly evolving. The structures we're going to are constantly evolving and technology is the future and so the more we push towards the new way of the world, I think the closer we're going to get to having safer fire grounds and a longer career for all firefighters and safer for all the civilians out there as well. So I say if you're thinking about getting in the space, just keep fighting, keep pushing and eventually, you know, we're going to find something that's going to be the new standard. And so I think it just until we get there, everybody just got to keep going.

[5:54] Kevin Sofen: Rock on. I love that. And I mean, just to kind of build on that from your guys' perspective, is there any technology or trend or nuance within the fire service that's kind of catching your eye right now as you mentioned it's always evolving I mean is there a trend that you see there's an opportunity for technology to support or and not all technology needs to be fancy but you know anything that's kind of catching your eye that excites you about where technology innovation could help support first responders.

[6:22] Chris Moon: I've never seen one or tried one but I do know that they've got some new SCBA masks that got some technology in them with built-in thermal imagers and stuff like that. And so I'd be interested to try that out sometime, see what that's all about.

[6:36] Seth Burton: Pretty much what you see coming in pretty big right now is going to be the drones and stuff like that. You can use those on like we're currently using drones for any type of search and rescue. So we have a thermal on our drone. So if we have a big incident, we'll actually deploy our drone our battalion truck and our deputy chief they have a drone they'll they can launch on a scene drones you know they're kind of newer in the last few years that's it's been a big help really just kind of we get called all the time to go look for missing people and eventually I could see the drone becoming integrated into most fire scenes for even with tracking and stuff like that. So that's the latest and greatest that I've seen that we're getting with.

[7:28] Kevin Sofen: And just to kind of look back here, we're sitting here in Muscatatuck, and we're outside of a prison right now, and hanging out, talking about FireTech. With this whole challenge from Indiana and NIST partnership, why is this sort of testing process so important in your eyes? I mean, if you are a firefighter and you're trying to try new technology, why this third-party validation or this testing so important to you if you're gonna you know consider trying or adopting new technology

[7:55] Chris Moon: I think that today in this past week you got two different worlds that are combining you know a lot of these are engineers people that are used to laboratory experiences and things and then you've got some of us here that are used to the real world and some things that may work in a laboratory may not work in the real world and then things that work that we may never think about here they're in and they're building and inventing those things. So the functionality of it is meeting. It's where the rubber really meets the road here. We're testing things out and figuring out what could work in a real scenario and what couldn't. I think these guys are giving us a look on things that we've never seen before and that we didn't know was possible. And we are giving them a look of what it looks like through our eyes. And so two worlds are really combining here.

[8:40] Seth Burton: Yeah, I mean, the stuff we're using here is, I mean, it's all been great. I like to come to it just because I know eventually I'm going to be one of the ones that's going to be wearing this stuff or they're going to implement it in our department. Have a little head start on knowing what's coming and seeing what's out there. Like Chris said, everything is almost lab tested per se and if they want to find a way to see if it's going to work, you got to put it on the guys that's going to be using it. I know some of these products are great and then some that you got to remember that it's going to be in thousand degree heat, water, and this and that. They might not get that kind of information from a lab test.

[9:25] Kevin Sofen: And what's the Mike Tyson phrase, you know, everyone's got to plan until you get punched in the mouth. So I mean it's really important to have this whole testing environment. You can't always take just a spec sheet for its work, for its word. I mean, you can give these crazy capabilities, but I'm a big believer in the show me, don't tell me. So kind of final thoughts in the sense you kind of called the mic drop and Brian there the other day, he actually, he dropped at the microphone. We were on the grass, we're on the concrete now, so maybe don't drop the microphone. Although Brian had a great mic drop and I might ask you to give a guest. repeat your final quote here to make it, to reinforce it. But from you guys, any sort of final message, question, comment, any sort of final insight or some sort that you could leave us with here today?

[10:13] Chris Moon: I'd like to thank all the teams, all the people who put this on. What they're trying to do is a real noble thing. And so whether their ideas worked out or whether they didn't, what they're trying to do is a good thing. And so I wanna thank everybody that's came out, that put the money behind it, that put the time into it. and just what they're trying to do here is it's something that's necessary and so I just want to thank everybody and thanks for having us.

[10:37] Seth Burton: Yeah but he pretty much just said everything I was going to say that he stole that line and all that for me but pretty much the only thing I got for it is if you want to create a product and build something and see if it works give it to a bunch of firefighters we'll find a way to break it.

[10:54] Kevin Sofen: Well said and I'm going to and the call from the rafters, Brian's sitting over here. Brian, you had a good closing quote yesterday, if you could say it again and even give a little context to officially end this conversation here today.

[11:06] Brian (audience member): Do you want the same one or a different one?

[11:08] Kevin Sofen: You know what, I think the same one, but if you have another one too, I'll take it.

[11:11] Brian (audience member): I got them all day, I get them off Facebook.

[11:12] Kevin Sofen: Okay, well do the same one and then a new one.

[11:14] Brian (audience member): Okay, so the context is advice to a rookie on the one we did from the other day, and that's stay busy with learning, training, and cleaning in that order, meaning, you know, we get all these house officers, they're so worried whether the station's clean, but they don't care if they can pull a hose line or not. You know, make sure that you know how to do the things that you're gonna be called on to do, and then cleaning is the last thing that we're worried about.

[11:39] Kevin Sofen: And then the new one.

[11:40] Brian (audience member): Okay, so this one, are you going to be a squatter, a renter, or an owner? It kind of goes into the homeowner thing, like, you know, if you're a squatter, you're just coming in, you don't really care about where you work, you don't really care about the citizens, all that kind of stuff, you're just there. If you're an owner, you care, or if you're a renter, you care a little bit, but you still have a landlord, so you don't take as much, you know, you don't get the security deposit back. If you're an owner, you take care of it, you leave it better than you found it, you're fixing the problems, and you care about the community, and you care about the place you work for, so we want owners, we don't want renters or squatters.

[12:16] Kevin Sofen: You could drop the microphone on the concrete if you wanted to.

[12:19] Brian (audience member): Nah, that's okay, because I know how much they cost.

[12:21] Kevin Sofen: Yeah, man, well, I appreciate all of everything the Columbus Fire Department's doing. Thanks for being here and helping advance technology. And until next time.

[12:29] Brian (audience member): Yeah, we love it.

[12:31] Kevin Sofen: Thanks guys. Thanks for listening to today's episode. What did you think? What'd you learn? Hopefully something, right? Please reach out on social media with your thoughts on this episode and any other suggestions for future content. We look forward to capturing more important stories across public safety and are here at your service.